# Billy Graham; he's one of the good guys, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085 "2012-09-28T01:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/61 "2012-10-02T01:41:36Z")
> [@opeongo66](#): > > He was an avowed anti Semite proven by his own words in his own voice on the Nixon tapes. He tells lies to children and weak gullible adults about the nature of reality. He believes in vicarious redemption as a moral strong point. For those who don’t know what that is, it is also called scapegoating. Like all religious leaders he wishes damnation and hellfire upon those who do not agree with his personal brand of insanity. Nice guy? I don’t think so. Dude, what? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/62 "2012-10-02T01:52:04Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The RCC used to condemn non-catholics to hell. They no longer do this. Is it because: > A) They received a divine revelation that said dogma was wrong. (Note: this answer disqualifies them from being a moral authority as what prevents a future church from finding current dogma wrong? Either you have a pipeline to god or you don’t but you can’t claim patchy reception without losing your authority.) > B) They lied before and are telling the truth now. > C) They were telling the truth before and are lying now. > D) It doesn’t matter because it’s all made up nonsense and they’re simply trying to find the most palatable load for people to swallow. Your multiple-choice question only makes sense if the RCC claimed infallibility for its teaching that non-catholics go to hell. Did they? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/63 "2012-10-02T02:03:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Your multiple-choice question only makes sense if the RCC claimed infallibility for its teaching that non-catholics go to hell. > > Did they? Not that I’m aware of – especially considering that the doctrine of papal infallibility is a fairly recent development, and was much criticized at the time. (I believe it was late 19th, early 20th century, if I’m not mistaken) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/64 "2012-10-02T03:54:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Your multiple-choice question only makes sense if the RCC claimed infallibility for its teaching that non-catholics go to hell. > > Did they? So, you choose A, then. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/65 "2012-10-02T07:29:07Z")
Or, they decided to sit down and re-study scripture, and take another look. After all, it’s not like the church hasn’t changed it’s positions on some things. (Not OFTEN, but sometimes) Why is it that this place can never have a ration discussion about religion anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/66 "2012-10-02T12:41:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > [Here you go](http://www.wnd.com/2006/08/37410/). I feel like a need a good wash after clicking on that link. It appears to be an Obama hate site. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/67 "2012-10-02T13:54:56Z")
It is. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/68 "2012-10-02T20:30:09Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I feel like a need a good wash after clicking on that link. It appears to be an Obama hate site. True, but it also illustrates how a lot of fundies loathe Graham. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/69 "2012-10-02T21:01:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or, they decided to sit down and re-study scripture, and take another look. After all, it’s not like the church hasn’t changed it’s positions on some things. (Not OFTEN, but sometimes) Which is a polite restatement of A. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/70 "2012-10-02T23:11:56Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Which is a polite restatement of A. Look, I really don’t wish to hijack this thread into a big long debate over RC theology. All I was trying to do was to correct **opeongo66** ’s statement that all Christian denominations believe that non-Christians go to Hell. I just happened to choose Catholicism as an example, since that’s the one I’m most familiar with, being a lapsed Catholic. If you want to start a debate about Catholic theology, you’re welcome to start a new thread. Again, I don’t want to further hijack this one. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/71 "2012-10-02T23:25:47Z")
I, on the other hand, would appreciate a response from **Inner Stickler**. I was wrong when I was a Christian, I was intellectually dishonest, and arguably foolish, but I was not evil, stupid, or crazy. If I had been, I never would have become an atheist! Frankly I get tired of the insulting implication that I must have been. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/72 "2012-10-02T23:52:01Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > instead of helping him be a rich old white man. Classism, ageism, racism, and sexism all rolled into one. Nice work. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/73 "2012-10-02T23:56:15Z")
With $25 million he could be a rich old white woman if he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/74 "2012-10-03T02:07:13Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Which is a polite restatement of A. It’s really not. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/75 "2012-10-03T02:23:36Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > The conversation about “the Jews” was unfortunate, but I really think he was just trying not to contradict the President of the United States to his face. How kind of you to be so charitable about that. :rolleyes: There was talk of that conversation for many years before the tape became available. He always denied that the conversation happened until the tape was released and he was backed into a corner. Forgive me for being less than impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/76 "2012-10-03T03:28:18Z")
Cite (not meant in a snarky way)? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/77 "2012-10-03T04:54:51Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I, on the other hand, would appreciate a response from **Inner Stickler**. I was wrong when I was a Christian, I was intellectually dishonest, and arguably foolish, but I was not evil, stupid, or crazy. If I had been, I never would have become an atheist! Frankly I get tired of the insulting implication that I must have been. I’m not really interested in playing which insult are you. > [@Miller](#): > > It’s really not. She’s left off the bit about relinquishment of moral authority and I can see why one would choose to ignore that bit but whether you call it divine revelation or taking another look, they decided for one reason or another that what they had previously been preaching as true was not true. The two statements are equivalent in results which is what matters. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/78 "2012-10-03T05:00:42Z")
> [@opeongo66](#): > > Like all religious leaders he wishes damnation and hellfire upon those who do not agree with his personal brand of insanity. Nice guy? Considering Rev. Graham’s statements, this is quite false. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, not really. Catholicism hasn’t really ever pushed for literalism, or fundamentalism. The Bible was never seen as taken “literally”. The Age of Enlightenment, I’ll grant you. But after that? Not really. The Catholics do take certain parts of the Bible quite literally-for example in Communion/Lord’s Supper they believe the bread and the wine truly become the flesh and blood of Christ while Baptists (even hardcore ones) take it symbolically. And if people are considered fundamentalists largely by adherence to their religious scriptures than heterodox sects can’t at all be considered fundamentalists such as say Warren Jeff’s FLDS. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/79 "2012-10-03T07:31:36Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m not really interested in playing which insult are you. That wasn’t really the point, but I take it then that you are conceding that your characterization of the RCC was false. And you seem unwilling to defend your excluded middle fallacy. Are you willing to accept my answer of E (which is clearly not a restatement of A) without challenge, then? ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085/80 "2012-10-03T22:06:34Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > [Billy Graham’s net worth is apparently $25 million.](http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/billy-graham-net-worth/) I am not going to say that that is completely a bad thing, but it doesn’t seem like a completely appropriate thing, either. It’s certainly not a Christian thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-graham-hes-one-of-the-good-guys-right/636085.md?page=5)