# Billy Joel is a registered TradeMark **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 16, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743 "2006-11-16T22:22:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/1 "2006-11-16T22:22:21Z")
As I understand it, names and titles cannot be copyrighted, which is why BJ is saying that his name is a ™. I undedrstand that too. A down and out pian player wants to make a back, records an album of crappy covers under the name of Billy Joel and convinces a record store (or amazon) t sell the dreck. Obviousy, BJ wants to protect his name, but does he have a chance in court? ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/2 "2006-11-16T23:01:32Z")
Genuine question: Why would you think he wouldn’t? Looks like a clear violation. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/3 "2006-11-17T00:08:42Z")
His name is William Joseph Martin Joel. “Billy Joel” is copyrighted as a stage name. Several other artists have done the same thing. The copyright protects the merchandising rights for Joel’s stage name. If it were not copyrighted, I could sell T-shirts outside a venue where Joel was performing that had “Billy Joel World Tour 2006” on them and not be breaking any law. With the copyright in place, I can be successfully prosecuted for infringement. It does not prevent us from talking about him and referring to him as Billy Joel. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/4 "2006-11-17T00:15:12Z")
I don’t think it is possible to copyright a name. Names are usually trademarked. They operate on similar principles, but I understand that there are some differences between the two. I’m sure there will be a real IP guy along shortly to explain further… ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/5 "2006-11-17T00:19:17Z")
[QUOTE=Rico] His name is William Joseph Martin Joel. “Billy Joel” is copyrighted as a stage name. The copyright protects the merchandising rights for Joel’s stage name. If it were not copyrighted, I could sell T-shirts outside a venue where Joel was performing that had “Billy Joel World Tour 2006” on them and not be breaking any law. [/QUOTE] I think you mean trademark. Here is a case that reviews some of the older cases on celebrities’ trademark (or service mark)\* rights in their names, perhaps the most famous being the \*Carson \* case. [copyright | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/200_F3d_593.htm) This court distinguishes footage of celebrities, which is subject to copyright law, from use of their name, \*e.g., \* _Carson_, or imitation of characteristic mannerisms, _Wendt_. - > [@](#): > > While the definition of ‘service mark’ in §45 of the Trademark Act, 15 U.S.C. §1127, includes a reference to character names, such names must be used to identify and indicate the source of a service before they are registrable. If a name serves merely as the name of a character who is a participant in a story or program, the name is not used as a service mark. In re Burger King Corp., 183 USPQ 698 (TTAB 1974); Ex parte Carter Publications, Inc., 92 USPQ 251 (Comm’r Pats. 1952). But see In re Folk, 160 USPQ 213 (TTAB 1968), where ‘THE LOLLIPOP PRINCESS’ was held to function as a service mark for entertainment services in the form of radio programs and personal appearances. > > Personal names (actual names and pseudonyms) are also subject to the requirement that they identify the services recited and not merely the individuals so named. See In re Mancino, 219 USPQ 1047 (TTAB 1983) (BOOM BOOM viewed by public solely as applicant’s professional boxing nickname and not as an identifier of services.) See also In re Lee Trevino Enterprises, Inc., 182 USPQ 253 (TTAB 1974) (LEE TREVINO used merely to identify a famous professional golfer of that name rather than as a mark to identify and distinguish any services rendered by him); and In re Generation Gap Products, Inc., 170 USPQ 423 (TTAB 1971) (GORDON ROSE used only to identify a particular individual and not as a service mark to identify the services of a singing group). However, see In re Florida Cypress Gardens Inc., 208 USPQ 288 (TTAB 1980) and In re Carson, 197 USPQ 554 (TTAB 1977), where the names CORKY THE CLOWN and JOHNNY CARSON, respectively, were held to be used as service marks and not merely as the names of characters in a program or show. It is clear from these cases that an individual’s name may be registered as a trademark or service mark only if the record demonstrates that the name functions in that manner, i.e., the name identifies the goods or services and indicates their origin. (Regarding consent by an individual to the registration of his or her name, see 15 U.S.C. §1052(c); TMEP §1206 et seq.) > **[TMEP 1301.02: What Is a Service Mark?, Oct. 2017 Ed. (BitLaw)](https://www.bitlaw.com/source/tmep/1301_02.html)** > > T.M.E.P. Section 1301.02: What Is a Service Mark?. Taken from the October 2015 Edition > of the MPEP. Updated in BitLaw in April 2018 ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/6 "2006-11-17T00:20:00Z")
Is it common for performers to trademark their stage name and display the ? I don’t recall John Mellencamp doing that back in his younger days when the record company thought he’d do better as Johnny Cougar, nor have I seen Gordon Sumner do the same with Sting. So why does Mr. Joel do it so visibly? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/7 "2006-11-17T00:31:55Z")
Here is the Trademark Office’s FAQ: [http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmfaq.htm](http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmfaq.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/8 "2006-11-17T01:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=gotpasswords] So why does Mr. Joel do it so visibly? [/QUOTE] I believe it was because of [Artie Ripp](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Spring_Harbor_(album)), who lived up to his name by ripping off Mr. Joel pretty badly. Harlan Ellison has trademarked his name as well. **Rico:** I used to suck up everything I could about Billy Joel when I was a tennager, and I never ran across “Joseph” as a part of his name until now. I see that it’s in the (long overdue for updating) alt.music.billy-joel FAQ. Wonder where they got it from? I’ve only ever seen “William Martin Joel.” (He played piano bar under the name “Bill Martin.”) ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/9 "2006-11-17T12:32:41Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] I don’t think it is possible to copyright a name. Names are usually trademarked. They operate on similar principles, but I understand that there are some differences between the two. I’m sure there will be a real IP guy along shortly to explain further… [/QUOTE] I wonder about trademarking a common name, though. Does that mean people REALLY named Billy Joel would owe him royalties? (Is this OP spurred by the Andy Griffith issue?) Would it hold in court? If so, maybe I should tm my name now! - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/10 "2006-11-17T12:35:10Z")
Could we have a link to the Staff Report, please? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/11 "2006-11-17T13:58:59Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] I wonder about trademarking a common name, though. Does that mean people REALLY named Billy Joel would owe him royalties? (Is this OP spurred by the Andy Griffith issue?) Would it hold in court? If so, maybe I should tm my name now! - Jinx [/QUOTE] Only if you can establish secondary meaning (or are famous). Illustrative discussions: [http://ivanhoffman.com/personalnames.html](http://ivanhoffman.com/personalnames.html) [http://www.arbforum.com/domains/decisions/128073.htm](http://www.arbforum.com/domains/decisions/128073.htm) [http://www.usip.com/articles/nameastm.htm](http://www.usip.com/articles/nameastm.htm) [http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/faq/tm\_faqs\_q4.html](http://www.wipo.int/sme/en/faq/tm_faqs_q4.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/12 "2006-11-17T14:01:00Z")
[QUOTE=picunurse] Could we have a link to the Staff Report, please? [/QUOTE] [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcopyright4.htm](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcopyright4.htm) ? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/13 "2006-11-17T14:22:04Z")
There’s also the issue of whether the mark would be found to be “primarily merely a surname,” although this finding only requires proof of distincitiveness: [TMEP 1211.01: "Primarily Merely a Surname", Oct. 2017 Ed. (BitLaw)](http://www.bitlaw.com/source/tmep/1211_01.html) _and see_, _Parks v. LaFace Records_ (6th Cir. 2003) (even though Rosa Parks’ name might not be eligible for registration as a trademark, and even though Defendants were not selling Rosa Parks-brand CD’s, a viable cause of action also exists under § 43(a) if consumers falsely believed that Rosa Parks had sponsored or approved the song, or was somehow affiliated with the song or the album, subject to some other issues; possibly also protected by right of publicity). [http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/6th/03a0137p.html](http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/6th/03a0137p.html) ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/14 "2006-11-17T15:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] I wonder about trademarking a common name, though. Does that mean people REALLY named Billy Joel would owe him royalties? (Is this OP spurred by the Andy Griffith issue?) Would it hold in court? [/QUOTE] No. “Billy Joel” is a trademark in only one particular use: to refer to a piano-playing musician. As long as you are not standing up on stage and performing under that name, or doing something that might be confused with the trademarked Billy Joel, then you are allowed to use it. Just having and using the name is not a trademark infringement. There are many people walking around with the last name of “McDonald,” for instance. They only get into trademark trouble if the open a restaurant. If your real name \>was\< Billy Joel and you wanted to perform, you’d be urged to pick a different stage name (probably long before Billy Joel found out about it – the person running the performance venue would insist on it). The trademark does not prevent someone else named “Billy Joel” from performing; all it does is prevent them from performing as “Billy Joel.” They could use “William Joel” and probably be OK, or, to be absolutely sure, call themselves “Billy Johnson.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/15 "2006-11-17T15:43:13Z")
[QUOTE=Charlie Tan] As I understand it, names and titles cannot be copyrighted [/quote] Very true. > [@](#): > > Obviousy, BJ wants to protect his name, but does he have a chance in court? He can protect his name if he is using it in commerce as a brand name for goods and services. If he’s just using it as his name – as in “This album was recorded by me, Billy Joel” or “This Broadway musical was directed by me, Billy Joel,” then, no, he probably doesn’t have a protectable trademark. [QUOTE=Rico] His name is William Joseph Martin Joel. “Billy Joel” is copyrighted as a stage name. Several other artists have done the same thing. [/quote] **Trademarked** , not copyrighted. Names cannot be copyrighted. I believe that the law does not make a distinction between your “legal” name and your “stage” name. Under American law, in particular, your name (for legal purposes) is pretty much what you tell everyone it is. If everyone knows you as “Billy Joel” then that’s your name. Your name might _also_ be William Joseph Martin Joel, but that’s not necessarily relevant. You are not obligated to use the name on your birth certificate for most day-to-day purposes. If you’re using it as your name, then it’s treated as a name, not as a trademark. Of course, this is subject to the _Carson_ issue for celebrities that **Gfactor** mentions. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/16 "2006-11-17T15:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] The trademark does not prevent someone else named “Billy Joel” from performing; all it does is prevent them from performing as “Billy Joel.” [/QUOTE] I doubt that it would even prevent that. You can’t stop someone from using his real name as his name. “I am Billy Joel and I will play the piano for you today” is use as a name, not as a trademark. Looking at Billy Joel’s three trademark and service mark registrations, I see the following categories: (1) SERIES OF PHONOGRAPH RECORDS, PRE-RECORDED MAGNETIC AUDIO AND VIDEO TAPES AND CASSETTES. (2) Posters, Music Books and Concert Programs. (3) Entertainment Services-Namely, Musical Entertainment Rendered to the General Public. In all cases, the registration is for a “typed drawing,” not a simple word mark. So it seems to me that Billy Joel does _not_, in fact, assert rights for his name qua name, but in fact a particular typed drawing of his name, used in connection with the provision of the foregoing services. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-joel-is-a-registered-trademark/380743/17 "2006-11-17T19:48:18Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Just having and using the name is not a trademark infringement. There are many people walking around with the last name of “McDonald,” for instance. They only get into trademark trouble if the open a restaurant. [/QUOTE] Mainly if said restaurant focuses on fast food and/or uses a the same lettering as the burger joint. A steak house with different lettering might raise some eyebrows at the burger joint’s HQ but wouldn’t get very far if they tried to make a case out of it.