# Billy Meier, whats the verdict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000 "2013-09-16T20:03:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/601 "2013-09-29T12:27:59Z")
It’s nothing personally against Vogel. We do not take any individual’s findings at face value. That is why we usually work in teams and have peer review to double-check what we think we saw. Unreproducible results are, as I had said before, worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/602 "2013-09-29T13:24:23Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > There will be nothing to retract for surely this will come to pass just as every other predictions that Billy has made over a number of decades If Jesus’ predictions didn’t come true, what chance does a mere mortal have? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/603 "2013-09-29T13:33:54Z")
I think I see how this works. First, some charismatic idiot makes a prediction, like “The Earth will be hit by a giant asteroid within one year, causing half of the planet’s people to perish.” Next year, since everyone is going about their business as usual, someone says, “Your idiot is a fraud.” “But it did happen! His prediction came true! _Everything he says come true_, you are just to blind to see it! Here’s a YouTube video that proves it. If you don’t watch it, _you’re ignoring the evidence._” Etc., etc… cf. [Cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/604 "2013-09-29T15:01:26Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Wendelle Stevens’ Possession of Jupiter-Io Documentation by March 9, 1979 > [TheyFly.com - The Billy Meier UFO Contacts -Wendelle Stevens' Possession of Jupiter-Io Documentation](http://theyfly.com/Wendelle-Stevens-Jupiter-Io.html) > > A True Prophet Revealed > Verifiable Documentation > …Und Sie Fliegen Doch! Ufos: Die Die Grobte Herausforderund Des 20. Jahrhunderts > > by Guido Moosbrugger > > Binding: Hardcover > > Publisher: Michael Hesemann > > Date published: 1991 > > ISBN-13: 9783925248184 ISBN:3925248188 > > [TheyFly.com - The Billy Meier UFO Contacts - A\_True\_Prophet\_Revealed](http://theyfly.com/A_True_Prophet_Revealed.html) > > Danger of Collision with the Red Meteor! > > [TheyFly.com - The Billy Meier UFO Contacts - The Red Meteor - Apophis](http://theyfly.com/Red_Meteor.html) > BREAKING NEWS: Meier Right. Again! > > [http://www.theyfly.com/breaking-news-meier-right-again-1](http://www.theyfly.com/breaking-news-meier-right-again-1) > > Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt > > [The Future Of Mankind - A Billy Meier Wiki - Proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt](http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/Proof_Beyond_A_Reasonable_Doubt) > > ``` > Contact Reports volume: 3 (Plejadisch-plejarische Kontakberichte, Gespräche, Block 3) > Page number(s): 215 - 295 > Date/time of contact: Thursday, October 19, 1978, 6:04 PM > Translator(s): Benjamin Stevens > Date of original translation: December 21, 2010 > Corrections and improvements made: N/A > Contact person: Semjase, Quetzal, and Ptaah > > ``` Heseman is not a publisher, rather a private person. I did specify \*\*independent \*\*publications. Outside the circle of Meier cronies. Science journal, news magazine, even a letter to the editor of a newspaper. Citing a work written in German and unavailable for review is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/605 "2013-09-29T15:20:38Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Easy, look at the obviously phony pictures. Geezz you call that research done with scientific methods ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/606 "2013-09-29T15:23:59Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Real tough predicting earthquakes and volcanoes. > > Jonestown prediction translated in 1990 and how convenient that it’s not on the FIGU site. > > That Red Meteor gives no specifics. Pretty easy to predict a meteor might come near, it’s been done for decades. Its the absence of erroneous prophetic information that is the incredible part about the case for surely the more guess work you do the more chance that you will get it wrong but none of this is the case with Billy ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/607 "2013-09-29T15:32:00Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Timeline for the Red Meteor.](http://podcast.sjrdesign.net/shownotes_049.php) > > Note also what was stated about the Red Meteor. > I don’t remember any of that, do you? Geezz it mustn’t be all that hard letting other people do your thinking for you instead of coming up with your own conclusions independent of any external influence. You’ve just ripped this guys words straight out of his website and did such a fantastic job of cut and pasting that I thought these were your own contentions, never mind ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/608 "2013-09-29T15:35:08Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Geezz you call that research done with scientific methods Same scientific method you use. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/609 "2013-09-29T15:36:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Every scientific discipline has its own metrics. Claiming that being brilliant excuses one from the need to actually understand the the technology and science is dumb. > Linus Pauling was a brilliant chemist, but when he proclaimed that massive doses of Vitamin C, taken orally, would prevent and cure cancer, he was just wrong. Vogel is not just an example of what can go wrong when a scientist expounds on an area outside his field of expertise - he demonstrates yet again that being accomplished and even brilliant in a scientific field doesn’t prevent one from descending into unsupported and ludicrous crankery (i.e. his “Vogel Crystal Cut” to focus “universal life force” and claims of verifying mysterious communications between plants). I’m reminded of a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry [(Kary Mullis](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis), who developed the polymerase chain reaction), who believed he had spoken to a glowing green cosmic raccoon and has espoused various lunacy including AIDS denial/conspiracy theory and (surprise!) alien abduction. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/610 "2013-09-29T15:39:23Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Heseman is not a publisher, rather a private person. > I did specify \*\*independent \*\*publications. Outside the circle of Meier cronies. > Science journal, news magazine, even a letter to the editor of a newspaper. > Citing a work written in German and unavailable for review is worthless. The intention here is to provide proof that these publications were copyrighted which precludes backdating ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/611 "2013-09-29T15:42:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I think I see how this works. First, some charismatic idiot makes a prediction, like “The Earth will be hit by a giant asteroid within one year, causing half of the planet’s people to perish.” > > Next year, since everyone is going about their business as usual, someone says, “Your idiot is a fraud.” > > “But it did happen! His prediction came true! _Everything he says come true_, you are just to blind to see it! Here’s a YouTube video that proves it. If you don’t watch it, _you’re ignoring the evidence._” > > Etc., etc… > > cf. [Cognitive dissonance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) No blind faith is involved only corroborated evidence for surely if you can’t test it to other evidence available how can you support the claim Billy has demonstrated over and over again his ability to beat even our modern science by years or decades in advance ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/612 "2013-09-29T15:43:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > If Jesus’ predictions didn’t come true, what chance does a mere mortal have? According to Billy Meier’s information the person my the name of Jesus Christ never existed, this name was falsely attributed to a real person by the name of Jmmanuel ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/613 "2013-09-29T15:46:45Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > The intention here is to provide proof that these publications were copyrighted which precludes backdating But without the original, how do we know a copy wasn’t altered before being translated. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/614 "2013-09-29T15:57:27Z")
That is nothing but an unsupportable assertion that is not grounded in reality. Every scientific discipline has its own metrics. Claiming that being brilliant excuses one from the need to actually understand the the technology and science is dumb. No but you are missing the point verging on the authority bias Even metallurgists aren’t immune from making mistakes as can be attributed to anyone in any scientific field. I’ve expounded and emphasized Vogel’s credentials because he has credibility in his own scientific field which happens to be a research chemist. Now as you know a research chemists doesn’t have to be an expert on metallurgy to determine the chemical composition of a given sample which also includes metal samples. Linus Pauling was a brilliant chemist, but when he proclaimed that massive doses of Vitamin C, taken orally, would prevent and cure cancer, he was just wrong. Medicine was outside his field of expertise and he made some basic mistakes in his analysis of the subject. Without training in metallurgy, Vogel’s opinion must be supported by the analysis of a genuine metallurgist or he is simply one more amateur spouting nonsense. Unless you provide a link and quote him directly I can’t vouch for whether Linus did state these claims. Until I see the actual testimony of the “metallurgist,” rather than an offhand comment by Vogel of what someone said without knowing what they actually saw or examined, I don’t account for anything. Vogel did not even claim that the metallurgist identified the material as thulium, his simply said that he did not know how to create a structure in that manner. If Vogel simply showed him graphs of mixed aluminum and silver and asked him how we would combine silver and thulium, for example, he might have given a legitimate answer to the question while missing the point. Since the metallurgist does not appear explaining his own examinations, we can only guess at what might have actually happened. Unfortunately that is not available or documented but this detracts from the real issue and that is whether Billy has possessed ET metal samples and yes all the evidence combined supports this I have not lied about or distorted anything. You have made some absolute claims and I have pointed out how they are subject to challenge, at which point you began frothing at the mouth. Next time, bring evidence. [/QUOTE] That is if only you will deal with it ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/615 "2013-09-29T16:01:02Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > It’s nothing personally against Vogel. We do not take any individual’s findings at face value. That is why we usually work in teams and have peer review to double-check what we think we saw. > > Unreproducible results are, as I had said before, worthless. Not if you consider other evidence in conjunction with this one which represents just a speck in total ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/616 "2013-09-29T16:02:22Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Same scientific method you use. 😃 Then you should’ve got it right like I have ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/617 "2013-09-29T16:02:32Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Wendelle Stevens’ Possession of Jupiter-Io Documentation by March 9, 1979 > [TheyFly.com - The Billy Meier UFO Contacts -Wendelle Stevens' Possession of Jupiter-Io Documentation](http://theyfly.com/Wendelle-Stevens-Jupiter-Io.html) Lets pick apart this thing. 1. Witness only saw the registering of the letter, not the contents. It just happens to be delivered on the same day as the event. No witnesses to the delivery and subsequent handling. Opening a sealed letter and replacing the contents is trivial. 2.W.Stevens did not receive the Contact Notes until March 9, four days _after_ Voyager’s fly-by of Jupiter. No way to confirm the content wasn’t altered before receipt. 3.He managed to miss that one of the planets beyond Pluto is the same size or he didn’t know about it at all. There are also more than just two. There has been speculation that there were planets beyond Neptune since 1846. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/618 "2013-09-29T16:04:18Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > But without the original, how do we know a copy wasn’t altered before being translated. Look at the date of the copyright not to mention the fact that if you copyright it you need to do so through copyright office which makes your material official ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/619 "2013-09-29T16:06:35Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Vogel is not just an example of what can go wrong when a scientist expounds on an area outside his field of expertise - he demonstrates yet again that being accomplished and even brilliant in a scientific field doesn’t prevent one from descending into unsupported and ludicrous crankery (i.e. his “Vogel Crystal Cut” to focus “universal life force” and claims of verifying mysterious communications between plants). > > I’m reminded of a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry [(Kary Mullis](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Kary_Mullis), who developed the polymerase chain reaction), who believed he had spoken to a glowing green cosmic raccoon and has espoused various lunacy including AIDS denial/conspiracy theory and (surprise!) alien abduction. You are wrong He hasn’t ventured outside of his domain in technical terms He is a research chemist. His findings were done as a research chemist which is his expertise and he analyzed the chemical composition of the metal samples ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/620 "2013-09-29T16:09:43Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Lets pick apart this thing. > > 1. Witness only saw the registering of the letter, not the contents. > It just happens to be delivered on the same day as the event. No witnesses to the delivery and subsequent handling. > Opening a sealed letter and replacing the contents is trivial. > 2.W.Stevens did not receive the Contact Notes until March 9, four days _after_ Voyager’s fly-by of Jupiter. > No way to confirm the content wasn’t altered before receipt. > 3.He managed to miss that one of the planets beyond Pluto is the same size or he didn’t know about it at all. > There are also more than just two. > There has been speculation that there were planets beyond Neptune since 1846. We aren’t dealing with speculation here but hard facts stated You have to consider the context in which these events occurred. A one armed Swiss farmer with meager financial means pulling off such a grand hoax of the millennium in anybody’s standard is just impossible and ludicrous. You really need to consider the context [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000.md?page=32)