# Billy Meier, whats the verdict? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000 "2013-09-16T20:03:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/641 "2013-09-30T09:21:05Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > William of Ockham must be turning in his grave for his methodological priciple or rather maxim to be gratutitously despoiled by people who least understand it. > > If you had applied this maxim properly to the Meier case, the simplest of explanation is usually the most correct and thus because the contact case is real, the complexities arising out of them was needlessly generated by the skeptics because they have failed to apply it themselves. The simplest explanation by far is that it’s a mediocre hoax. Aliens, prophecies, swapped pictures, altered memories, assassination attempts…that’s the ludicrously complicated explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/642 "2013-09-30T11:25:53Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > James Randi owes Billy $1,000,000 > [Horn.challenge29.3.04](http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/meier/gaiaguys/Horn.challenge29.3.04.htm) No. He most certainly does not. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/643 "2013-09-30T11:32:36Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Gee its no wonder > The skeptical movement is another cult religion in and of itself > These skeptic aren’t interested in finding out the truth in as much as wanting to maintain the stutus quo. > Its all belief oriented but never bsed on reality although they get some things right sometimes. Blah, blah, blah ad hominen after ad hominen. > [@](#): > > The only reason why you think that people are less inclined to bother with the Billy Meier case with their skeptical inquiry is that some of them actually woke up out of their matrix of limitation and had the sense to be sensible about it and saw the truth for what it really is. Your partly right, except they woke and realized it was just a sad, sad little hoax pushed by fanatics. It was no longer worth the effort and there were more pressing issues to deal with. > [@](#): > > You will find that your position is getting very narrower by the day as people learn of the truth of the Billy Meier case as being genuine all along. Uh-huh. Any day now. Any day now. Any day now > [@](#): > > Yes most of the professional work to verify Billy’s claims through the impeccable evidence presented was done and with unbiased professionism by the experts. These are the ‘unbiased experts’ who are also crazy UFO nuts, yes? > [@](#): > > The skeptics on the other hand are still stuck some several decades back going around their merry-goround of irrationalism and illogicism having made no advances nor improvements in their method of inquiry failing to upgrade their thinking to the level required to fully understand and appracite the Meier contact case. There’s really not much improvement needed to point out how silly things like the wedding cake UFO are. It does not even pass the sniff test. > [@](#): > > Declaring that fewer people are taking on Meier is like declaring victory for little winged people because nobody debunks the Cottingly fairies anymore. > > Wow that says it all, well perhaps now that you’ve mentioned that nobody debunks the ‘cottingly fairies’ anymore, you guys might be on the right track to quit chasing fairies and start focusing on a real and sure thing like the Billy Meier case. > You may make some inroads. Sorry, your hero is already in the same bin as the Cottingly fairies. > [@](#): > > Well how can I take you seriously when you don’t present a good argument based on reason and common sense (which is not so common these days) based on real research but instead spout off condescending and derogatory remarks that even a preschooler can do [/QUOTE] Pot. Kettle. Black. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/644 "2013-09-30T12:19:05Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Ghandi, Arthur, Churchill and Budda said it best about the truth of the Billy Meeier’s contact case. Bea Arthur? > [@](#): > > All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. > Arthur Schopenhauer Oh _that_ Arthur. “But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” - Carl Sagan I think Schopenhauer would have readily conceded that unlike truth, ludicrous bullshit remains stuck in the stage of farce and ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/645 "2013-09-30T12:40:17Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. > Arthur Schopenhauer > > The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is. > Winston Churchill Just because they laugh at you doesn’t mean you are right. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/646 "2013-09-30T13:19:40Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > William of Ockham must be turning in his grave for his methodological priciple or rather maxim to be gratutitously despoiled by people who least understand it. > > If you had applied this maxim properly to the Meier case, the simplest of explanation is usually the most correct and thus because the contact case is real, the complexities arising out of them was needlessly generated by the skeptics because they have failed to apply it themselves. So you’re seriously saying that the explanation: "Aliens contacted a farmer, let him take pictures of themselves and their poorly driven spacecraft and pontificated at him, while coyly hiding from everyone else. They were all-powerful, yet easily thwarted by humans in their efforts to get the word out, and have made no grand appearance or widely agreed manifestation since their initial appearance in the 70s. " is more parsimonious than: “The farmer fakes UFO photos and makes stuff up.” ---
**Author:** ![mystic7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@mystic7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mystic7)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/647 "2013-09-30T14:26:03Z")
Jesus’ prophesies never came to past? Hummm… Well maybe that’s because there never was such a real person by the name of Jesus Christ (false title based on Greco Roman cult i.e. Son of Zeus). But jmmanuel’s prophesies did come true and are coming true - even for our time. Read the Talmud Jmmanuel and see for yourself. Would anyone like to debate me on the subject of the TJ? BRING IT ON! ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/648 "2013-09-30T14:45:04Z")
This board’s denizens should step back for a moment to reflect on just how plausible the Billy Meier story is. Having perused this thread I suspect that I’m slowly being won over. Hear me out. Here’s how I see it. Billy Meier sounds ludicrous, right? Nordic aliens contacting a Swiss farmer to teach new age spiritualism, prophecies, assassination attempts, time travel, all dramatic stuff straight out of early schlock cinema. The alternatives seem to be: 1) Meier is crazy (he’s insane); 2) the whole thing’s fabricated (it’s an invention); or 3) everything happened more or less as Meier tells it (it’s indisputable). Call it the insanity / invention / indisputable trilemma. Now, Meier can’t be insane because his teachings — the new age stuff handed down from the Plejarans — are too full of genuine wisdom to come from a crazy person. And surely he’s not lying, because he has no _reason_ to lie but instead has everything to lose: other people insult him and even try to kill him! His wife left him and calls him a fraud! He’s a ridiculous laughing stock! Thus I have no option other than to conclude that aliens _did_ visit Billy Meier. Perhaps they were drunk and it was a dare? That’d explain the tree thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/649 "2013-09-30T14:49:43Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > “The farmer fakes UFO photos and makes stuff up.” Whoa! Slow down there Einstein! Some of us don’t have advanced degrees, and have trouble with topics of advanced complexity. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/650 "2013-09-30T14:57:53Z")
> [@mystic7](#): > > Jesus’ prophesies never came to past? Hummm… Well maybe that’s because there never was such a real person by the name of Jesus Christ (false title based on Greco Roman cult i.e. Son of Zeus). > > But jmmanuel’s prophesies did come true and are coming true - even for our time. Read the Talmud Jmmanuel and see for yourself. > > Would anyone like to debate me on the subject of the TJ? BRING IT ON! Another piece of evidence that was conveniently lost. Is Meier able to hold onto anything? ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/651 "2013-09-30T17:52:17Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Another piece of evidence that was conveniently lost. > Is Meier able to hold onto anything? Well when you are up against malicious ET forces + MIB+ CIA+ Mossad+ Religious fanatics+ Assassins+ Skeptics+ the swiss army+ other secret services+ teacherous group member from within Meier’s own rank+ ex wife+ MUFON+ charlatans+ fraudsters+ corrupt mass media+ Zionists+ governments+ UFO groups+ imposed conditions of the semi plausible deniability factor+ cosmic spiritual laws and what have you, you have the monumental task of overcoming such powerful forces on top of writing over 25,000 pages of articles, books, bulletins, special bulletins, contact notes, giving interviews, taking photos and video footage, meeting with the Plejaren in hostile environment, taking care of family, earning a living, working on the farm, building and repairing, tiling the soil, correcting translation work, having group meetings, runing FIGU, showing investigators around the actual site where he has taken the video footage and photos, sleeping, eating, showering, cleaning, planting trees, running a garden, lecturing, dodging bullets and assassination attempts, going through the hubris of ridicule, going through financial difficulty, raising children, and on and on, where does a person find all the time to do all these things. Yet not one person to this day has come forward accusing Billy of perpetuating a fraud with him which makes this case even more remarkable in that how does a one armed farmer pull something off as grand as this all by himself without aid or help from anyone if it were to be a fraud. This clearly doesn’t make sense let alone it being possible for one person to do. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/652 "2013-09-30T17:59:19Z")
He’s had plenty of help from people like you. Now, back to Randi. You haven’t provided the full email exchange you cited up-thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/653 "2013-09-30T17:59:56Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Well when you are up against malicious ET forces + MIB+ CIA+ Mossad+ Religious fanatics+ Assassins+ Skeptics+ the swiss army+ other secret services+ teacherous group member from within Meier’s own rank+ ex wife+ MUFON+ charlatans+ fraudsters+ corrupt mass media+ Zionists+ governments+ UFO groups+ imposed conditions of the semi plausible deniability factor+ cosmic spiritual laws and what have you, you have the monumental task of overcoming such powerful forces on top of writing over 25,000 pages of articles, books, bulletins, special bulletins, contact notes, giving interviews, taking photos and video footage, meeting with the Plejaren in hostile environment, taking care of family, earning a living, working on the farm, building and repairing, tiling the soil, correcting translation work, having group meetings, runing FIGU, showing investigators around the actual site where he has taken the video footage and photos, sleeping, eating, showering, cleaning, planting trees, running a garden, lecturing, dodging bullets and assassination attempts, going through the hubris of ridicule, going through financial difficulty, raising children, and on and on, where does a person find all the time to do all these things. What happens when you give a run-on sentence a case of Red Bull? > [@](#): > > Yet not one person to this day has come forward accusing Billy of perpetuating a fraud with him which makes this case even more remarkable in that how does a one armed farmer pull something off as grand as this all by himself without aid or help from anyone if it were to be a fraud. No real need to prove anything. It all falls apart at the gateway. Bill’s been caught faking things and blaming mysterious agencies when it gets pointed out. His followers buy every word of it. Meanwhile the rest of the world just laughs - and they are not laughing with him. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/654 "2013-09-30T18:04:48Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Well when you are up against malicious ET forces + MIB+ CIA+ Mossad+ Religious fanatics+ Assassins+ Skeptics+ the swiss army+ other secret services+ teacherous group member from within Meier’s own rank+ ex wife+ MUFON+ charlatans+ fraudsters+ corrupt mass media+ Zionists+ governments+ UFO groups+ imposed conditions of the semi plausible deniability factor+ cosmic spiritual laws and what have you, you have the monumental task of overcoming such powerful forces on top of writing over 25,000 pages of articles, books, bulletins, special bulletins, contact notes, giving interviews, taking photos and video footage, meeting with the Plejaren in hostile environment, taking care of family, earning a living, working on the farm, building and repairing, tiling the soil, correcting translation work, having group meetings, runing FIGU, showing investigators around the actual site where he has taken the video footage and photos, sleeping, eating, showering, cleaning, planting trees, running a garden, lecturing, dodging bullets and assassination attempts, going through the hubris of ridicule, going through financial difficulty, raising children, and on and on, where does a person find all the time to do all these things. Outside of writing documents, taking pictures, and normal household duties, all of this stuff he’s “up against” is nonexistent. It really isn’t difficult to take horribly out of focus pictures of a trash can lid, when you’re NOT dodging CIA bullets and entertaining visitors from another planet. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/655 "2013-09-30T18:04:48Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > So you’re seriously saying that the explanation: > > "Aliens contacted a farmer, let him take pictures of themselves and their poorly driven spacecraft and pontificated at him, while coyly hiding from everyone else. > > They were all-powerful, yet easily thwarted by humans in their efforts to get the word out, and have made no grand appearance or widely agreed manifestation since their initial appearance in the 70s. " > > is more parsimonious than: > > “The farmer fakes UFO photos and makes stuff up.” You have failed to appreciate the existence of cosmic laws or rather Creational spiritual laws that the ET Plejaren must abide by in that they cannot directly intervene in the affairs of other races especially a primitive one such as ours who hasn’t yet achieved true interstellar travel and a certain degree of spirituality. You must also factor in the wider remification of what an unequivocal showing of themselves will do to our society given that most are still stuck in a certain religious dogma and the kind of destruction and calamity it will cause. Not only that but by the ET Plejaren forcing themselves on us earthlings prematurly, you will inevitably get more problems as the religiously inclined will start worshipping them as Gods and superhumans who will then relegate all their self responsibilities upon these ET visitors. The implication and negative repercusions to earth will be immense with a landing on the whitehouse lawn. Much as the early Conquistadors wreaked havoc upon the new world (south america) and the Aztec population, the effect of the ET showing themselves to us earthling will also have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/656 "2013-09-30T18:04:52Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > Well when you are up against malicious ET forces + MIB+ CIA+ Mossad+ Religious fanatics+ Assassins+ Skeptics+ the swiss army+ other secret services+ teacherous group member from within Meier’s own rank+ ex wife+ MUFON+ charlatans+ fraudsters+ corrupt mass media+ Zionists+ governments+ UFO groups+ imposed conditions of the semi plausible deniability factor+ cosmic spiritual laws and what have you, you have the monumental task of overcoming such powerful forces on top of writing over 25,000 pages of articles, books, bulletins, special bulletins, contact notes, giving interviews, taking photos and video footage, meeting with the Plejaren in hostile environment, taking care of family, earning a living, working on the farm, building and repairing, tiling the soil, correcting translation work, having group meetings, runing FIGU, showing investigators around the actual site where he has taken the video footage and photos, sleeping, eating, showering, cleaning, planting trees, running a garden, lecturing, dodging bullets and assassination attempts, going through the hubris of ridicule, going through financial difficulty, raising children, and on and on, where does a person find all the time to do all these things. You understand, of course, that in the above you are assuming that the hostile forces, meeting aliens, dodging bullets, and such are actually happening. Further, to me, “pulling off” a hoax means convincing people that it’s not a hoax. Meier hasn’t done this, beyond a devoted fringe. [Charles Dawson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man) pulled off a hoax, he fooled his peers for 40 years. Meier hasn’t. > [@newinitiation](#): > > Yet not one person to this day has come forward accusing Billy of perpetuating a fraud with him which makes this case even more remarkable in that how does a one armed farmer pull something off as grand as this all by himself without aid or help from anyone if it were to be a fraud. The ex-wife doesn’t count? > [@newinitiation](#): > > This clearly doesn’t make sense let alone it being possible for one person to do. Take away the fantastical parts, and it’s just writing fictional books and producing low-quality fake images, which when debunked, are explained away using more fantasy. It’s absolutely possible. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/657 "2013-09-30T18:06:11Z")
> [@newinitiation](#): > > You have failed to appreciate the existence of cosmic laws or rather Creational spiritual laws that the ET Plejaren must abide by in that they cannot directly intervene in the affairs of other races especially a primitive one such as ours who hasn’t yet achieved true interstellar travel and a certain degree of spirituality. Why did they invite him on a trip and let him take pictures of their fine lady aliens? Seems to be a violation of the Prime Directive. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/658 "2013-09-30T18:06:11Z")
Assassination attempts. 21 of 'em. Surely there was some evidence left behind . If you shoot and miss, there’s a hole somewhere. You would also think the potential victim would go to the police and it would make the news with that many attempts. Lets see some links. ---
**Author:** ![newinitiation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@newinitiation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newinitiation)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/659 "2013-09-30T18:09:21Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Bea Arthur?Oh _that_ Arthur. > > “But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.” > > - Carl Sagan > > I think Schopenhauer would have readily conceded that unlike truth, ludicrous bullshit remains stuck in the stage of farce and ridicule. But no amount of laughing at the Billy meier case will ever make in unreal ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000/660 "2013-09-30T18:10:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Why did they invite him on a trip and let him take pictures of their fine lady aliens? Seems to be a violation of the Prime Directive. Well you see, Cheesesteak, the laws only apply when convenient to Billy’s handwaving excuses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/billy-meier-whats-the-verdict/669000.md?page=34)