# Birth control, breast pumps, counseling for abuse? Are we going to do pedicures & manicures as well? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972 "2011-08-08T18:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/381 "2011-08-16T23:46:13Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I’m sorry, are all forms of pleasure sexual to you? Who said breastfeeding was _sexually_ pleasurable? Hard as this is for you to understand, breast feeding is a bonding experience that many women enjoy. Much like holding a baby and cuddling it is a sensation many women enjoy. I don’t even have children, nor do I want children, nor do I like babies, and even I know that. It seems that this idea that touching your own progeny is a positive experience is quite foreign to you. Were you by chance, raised by the Wire Mother? **ZPGZ** has stated in other threads that it is inappropriate to raise a child with love, or to love a child, because that does them harm. Loving a child, according to her, makes them spoiled and weak, and does the child a disservice. Discussing this issue, or really, any issue with her, is a complete waste of time. Because she is insane. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/382 "2011-08-16T23:52:07Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Because she is insane. This is the key fact I keep forgetting :smack: ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/383 "2011-08-16T23:56:06Z")
Wow. Not only is everyone outside her ethnic group out to get her, but any form of familial affection is verboten. What a sad, frightened, lonely life **ZPGZ** must lead. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/384 "2011-08-17T03:07:20Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Could be. OTOH, the “disability” of maternity was automatically approved, whereas any other disability required jumping thru hoops and waiting for weeks. So either maternity leave was a different thing, or it was treated completely differently from all other disabilities. That’s the way it worked for me, too - I gave my doctor’s office the papers and the deadline by which they were required at the STD company and they were approved and when I had the baby, I was pre-approved for 6 weeks of STD leave. Part of it is that it’s easier to prove having a baby than it is to prove that certain other injuries or illnesses prevent you from working (keep in mind, too, that illnesses like cancer might fall under long-term disability as opposed to short-term, dependent upon your prognosis). Even though most people don’t abuse STD, it’s much easier to abuse an STD policy for what might be considered a “grey-area” injury than for a birth. After all, after you have a baby, you have, well, a baby. And the amount of time doctors have set for recovering from a standard uncomplicated vaginal birth is widely accepted as a standard. It’s much harder to do something like that with, for example, a car accident injury. Let’s say you get in a car accident severe enough to sprain something or give you whiplash - severe enough you really don’t feel like you can work. So you go to your doctor, who adds information on your condition to your medical file about the level of pain you’re feeling, the drugs you’re taking for the pain and any necessary X-rays. The STD company has a case worker who assesses those files and agrees or disagrees on the “validity” of the condition. Some case workers are more apt to pass cases more quickly than others, especially if there’s potentially some question about the filers ability to work. Granted, some stranger sitting in an office somewhere shouldn’t be able to tell someone else, “Nope - you say you’re in a lot of pain. But really you’re not.” But that’s a lot harder to quantify than a birth. You had a baby or you didn’t. You had it vaginally or by C-section. You had complications or you didn’t. Most contingencies for birth have standardized amounts of time doctors have given for recovery; many injuries and illnesses don’t. Truthfully, I don’t agree with considering birth a disability. However, I do think that women don’t get enough time to take care of their babies before going back to work. I’m not saying women should have that time paid for, but having FMLA extend six or more months would be ideal. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/385 "2011-08-17T05:17:16Z")
> [@overlyverbose](#): > > That’s the way it worked for me, too - I gave my doctor’s office the papers and the deadline by which they were required at the STD company and they were approved and when I had the baby, I was pre-approved for 6 weeks of STD leave. Part of it is that it’s easier to prove having a baby than it is to prove that certain other injuries or illnesses prevent you from working (keep in mind, too, that illnesses like cancer might fall under long-term disability as opposed to short-term, dependent upon your prognosis). Even though most people don’t abuse STD, it’s much easier to abuse an STD policy for what might be considered a “grey-area” injury than for a birth. After all, after you have a baby, you have, well, a baby. And the amount of time doctors have set for recovering from a standard uncomplicated vaginal birth is widely accepted as a standard. It’s much harder to do something like that with, for example, a car accident injury. In my case, in two states, I was given the run around for issues that had been created on the job, were fully documented, my immediate supervisor knew of and agreed that I needed time off to heal and I had all of the necessary paperwork from the doctors. In the case of the WA disability, which took six months to approve during which I got much worse, two women found they were pregnant and were approved for paid leave with no hassle. One of them ended up with complications and had to do bed rest towards the end and of course that was approved right away. All of this for what is essentially a self inflicted disability… > [@](#): > > Let’s say you get in a car accident severe enough to sprain something or give you whiplash - severe enough you really don’t feel like you can work. So you go to your doctor, who adds information on your condition to your medical file about the level of pain you’re feeling, the drugs you’re taking for the pain and any necessary X-rays. The STD company has a case worker who assesses those files and agrees or disagrees on the “validity” of the condition. Oh, in my case I was working for insurance companies, so only dealt with HR. > [@](#): > > Truthfully, I don’t agree with considering birth a disability. However, I do think that women don’t get enough time to take care of their babies before going back to work. I’m not saying women should have that time paid for, but having FMLA extend six or more months would be ideal. The thing is, a woman chooses to have and keep a baby, and for some reason the companies I worked for were supposed to give her her full salary while she stayed home and took care of the baby. Ignoring all the trouble I had to get medical leave, why is it that a woman is paid to do something she feels like doing, but anything a man or a woman who doesn’t have kids wants to do for six months is not only not paid for, that person is likely to lose their job? Just because having babies is popular? I guess I wouldn’t have as much trouble with FMLA going out to six months, but that too ends up costing the companies money, and it’s a benefit that not everyone gets to use. Why six months? Is the baby more capable of going into daycare then? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/386 "2011-08-17T06:56:02Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Fertility is not a disease. Fertility isn’t a disease, but managing fertility is an important aspect of _preventative_ healthcare for both women and the children that they do birth. This is especially true given that pregnancy represents both a substantial health risk and a major interruption to a woman’s life. Avoiding unwanted pregnancy, like avoiding illness, is an important component of maintaining one’s health and one’s way of life. Also, we know that the health of a child’s mother _prior_ to becoming pregnant has an impact on the health outcomes of children not just at birth, but throughout their lives. Yet at least half (if not more) of pregnancies are not planned. When women are able to actively plan pregnancies and work to ensure that they’re as healthy as possible before conception they have healthier children. That goal isn’t possible without access to reliable contraception. Additionally, pregnancy spacing – that is, having sufficient time between pregnancies – is also now proving to be especially important for the health of the mother and all of her subsequently born children. Once again, reliable contraception is inherently necessary to meet the goal of maximizing health outcomes. That becoming pregnant is a “natural” process doesn’t mean that indiscriminate pregnancy is beneficial to anyone involved. The health aspects of carefully prepared for and appropriately spaced pregnancies get lost in the furor of those who object to women being able to control this particular aspect of their lives on a cultural level, typically from some religious standpoint that women are rejecting their “nature” or some mandatory blessing of God, neither of which have anything to do with the actual medical science involved in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/387 "2011-08-17T09:03:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I have counseled plenty of women who felt suicidal over the fact that they had to breastfeed. Nightmares about the baby eating them (which in a way the baby actually was). Wanting to kill the baby because it was a vampire, etc., Switching to formula always ended the problem. And your comment about nursing feels very good, that borders on incest. Yeah, having your nipples sucked on can feel very good, no argument there, but you really shouldn’t be using your kid for that sort of stimulation. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If the reason for breast feeding is because it makes the mother feel pleasure, I guess you are in deed a pedophile. Congratulations for admitting it. Now you need to get help and the baby needs to be placed in care of a guardian that doesn’t use children to satisfy their sexual needs. You’re awesome dude. But, I’m feeling you’re holding back on what you really really mean. Please, elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/388 "2011-08-17T15:36:56Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Aw God. Just because people say that health insurance shouldn’t cover everything for everyone then we are heartless assholes. Oh, I don’t think you’re heartless–just retarded. > [@](#): > > How about this. Let’s mandate that health insurance provide every man, with no copay or deductible, a free monthly visit to a strip club. Do you object? You do? How is it hurting you by me getting a benefit that you don’t get? See what I mean? > [@jtgain](#): > > Does [health insurance] typically cover IVF for a 25 year old woman who cannot get pregnant? There’s a very wide range of coverage for fertility treatments across health plans. Some plans offer nothing at all, while others will cover multiple attempts and/or tens of thousands of dollars in treatment, as some combination of specific procedures and prescription drugs. > [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > How about this, I’ll volunteer to pay for your castration if I can be assured that you will never spread your genes on to the next generation ever, ever, ever. God damn. I’ll chip in! > [@overlyverbose](#): > > I gave my doctor’s office the papers and the deadline by which they were required at the STD company and they were approved and when I had the baby, I was pre-approved for 6 weeks of STD leave. […] Even though most people don’t abuse STD, it’s much easier to abuse an STD policy for what might be considered a “grey-area” injury than for a birth. I know that STD means Short-Term Disability (to be contrasted with LTD), but I’m still going to read it as Sexually Transmitted Disease all through this post and giggle quietly to myself. (Especially amusing in the context of pregnancy.) > [@curlcoat](#): > > All of this for what is essentially a self inflicted disability… [pregnancy] Tough shit. Benefits don’t discriminate against whether or not someone was responsible for their own condition. Obesity, diabetes, cancer from tobacco, drug overdose, slit wrists from a suicide attempt: these are all covered by insurance and disability. > [@](#): > > Ignoring all the trouble I had to get medical leave, why is it that a woman is paid to do something she feels like doing, but anything a man or a woman who doesn’t have kids wants to do for six months is not only not paid for, that person is likely to lose their job? Just because having babies is popular? Do you want society to continue after you? Like, _all civilization_? Want doctors to take care of you when you’re old, farmers to raise crops, cashiers to sell the food, police to keep you from being robbed or murdered in your sleep, government to keep your disability checks coming in? Guess what, **curly** : it’s of \*direct benefit to you \*for other people to keep having babies. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > You’re awesome dude. But, I’m feeling you’re holding back on what you really really mean. Please, elaborate. Oh, no. \*Please \*don’t encourage her. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/389 "2011-08-17T16:16:46Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > **ZPGZ** has stated in other threads that it is inappropriate to raise a child with love, or to love a child, because that does them harm. Loving a child, according to her, makes them spoiled and weak, and does the child a disservice. > > Discussing this issue, or really, any issue with her, is a complete waste of time. > > Because she is insane. Love is fine, but unnecessary and frankly overrated. Hell, my parents “loved” me, but love doesn’t stop someone who is an immature asshole from screwing up and making other peoples’ lives hell. And when love prevents the caregivers from socializing the child to be a responsible adult it’s another form of neglect. Seriously, Kolga, do you comprehend any world outside of the Cupcake land of the American middle class? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/390 "2011-08-17T16:24:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Do you want society to continue after you? Like, _all civilization_? Want doctors to take care of you when you’re old, farmers to raise crops, cashiers to sell the food, police to keep you from being robbed or murdered in your sleep, government to keep your disability checks coming in? Guess what, **curly** : it’s of \*direct benefit to you \*for other people to keep having babies. That is only true if those babies grow up to be productive ciitizens. Otherswise, those babies grow up to be destructive to our society and we have to waste resources locking them up or putting them down. What should be encouraged is making good decisions about if and when a person produces a child. A baby in and of it self is only raw material for a potential citizen and contributes less to society than a domestic animal at birth. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/391 "2011-08-17T16:28:40Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Hell, my parents “loved” me Well, one can hardly blame them for stopping. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/392 "2011-08-17T16:32:45Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > What should be encouraged is making good decisions about if and when a person produces a child. Hence the birth control and the abuse counseling…correct? This is one of the few sensible things I’ve seen you post. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/393 "2011-08-17T16:50:18Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > That is only true if those babies grow up to be productive ciitizens. Otherswise, those babies grow up to be destructive to our society and we have to waste resources locking them up or putting them down. Clearly, what we need is some way to determine whose childbearing should be subsidized–or, even better, who should be allowed to breed at all! And with whom! I see \*no possible way \*for this to end badly. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/394 "2011-08-17T16:56:10Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Love is fine, but unnecessary and frankly overrated… What’s the opposite of QFT? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/395 "2011-08-17T17:00:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Clearly, what we need is some way to determine whose childbearing should be subsidized–or, even better, who should be allowed to breed at all! And with whom! I see \*no possible way \*for this to end badly. The precogs will figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/396 "2011-08-17T17:11:34Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What’s the opposite of QFT? I’d go with QFR[etardedness]. Or QFS[tupidity] if you’re one of those people who has an objection to euphemism treadmills. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/397 "2011-08-17T18:58:05Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What’s the opposite of QFT? I would say, “Holy shit are you crazy,” but since that’s already been posted in this thread about 8 times, I guess you need to find another way. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/398 "2011-08-17T19:06:47Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Love is fine, but **unnecessary and frankly overrated**. (bolding mine) Exhibit A for the argument that you are insane. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Hell, my parents “loved” me, Sounds like you have some issues with your parents. The rest of your quote is Exhibit B that you are insane. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/399 "2011-08-17T19:38:39Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > A baby in and of it self is only raw material for a potential citizen and contributes less to society than a domestic animal at birth. What if the baby is a werewolf? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972/400 "2011-08-17T20:00:39Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > What if the baby is a werewolf? Oh shit, son. You went full on werewolf. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birth-control-breast-pumps-counseling-for-abuse-are-we-going-to-do-pedicures-manicures-as-well/591972.md?page=21)