# Birther Mania **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051 "2010-05-11T14:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/201 "2010-05-14T14:01:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hence my earlier question about past presidents and vice-presidents. Has it ever been a question _before_? If so, how was it resolved, and if not, why now? I don’t think so, hence the absence of legal precedents. I believe every President born post-1783 was born in a U.S. state (or territory?). Ironically, it would have been more of an issue with John McCain and his PCZ birthplace, although one suspects that the same people making waves now would have been oddly silent on the subject had McCain won. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/202 "2010-05-14T14:10:19Z")
> [@C3](#): > > True, but Rand Rover (and the Birthers) are just using that discussion to muddy the waters. I’m nitr trying to muddy the waters. I’m fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/203 "2010-05-14T14:21:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t think so, hence the absence of legal precedents. I believe every President born post-1783 was born in a U.S. state (or territory?). Well, yes, but I thought the question being raised was about where the executive’s _parents_ were born, insofar as it might affect one’s own “natural born” status. I trust nobody here is arguing that Obama wasn’t actually born in Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/204 "2010-05-14T15:43:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Those are not cases interpreting the term “natural born citizen.” They are cases that discuss the definition of “natural born citizen” in dictum. Dictum is just stuff judges say in an opinion as an FYI basically–it has no value as precedent in any other case. I agree that the first cite was dictum. However, the second cite appears to be a ruling. The entire case is was to ascertain whether Wong Kim Arc was, in fact, a citizen, thus his opinion had direct bearing on the case and is not dictum. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/205 "2010-05-14T15:53:56Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I agree that the first cite was dictum. However, the second cite appears to be a ruling. The entire case is was to ascertain whether Wong Kim Arc was, in fact, a citizen, thus his opinion had direct bearing on the case and is not dictum. And let’s also remember dicta can turn out to be very important, especially if later courts have nothing else to go on. _See_ _United States v. Carolene Products_, 304 U.S. 144, 152 n.4. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/206 "2010-05-14T15:59:25Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > And the troll gives rock solid proof of his trollishness. > > Well done puppy rapist. Well done. I remember when this place had mods. I wonder what ever happened to **Giraffe**? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/207 "2010-05-15T06:00:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I trust nobody here is arguing that Obama wasn’t actually born in Hawaii. Oh no. No one would argue that! :rolleyes: We’re just saying we don’t _know_ he was born in Hawaii; we don’t _know_ he graduated from Harvard Law, and especially with a name like Obama Hussein, we don’t _know_ he’s not an Al Qaeda mole. Come to think of it, has he ever had a DNA test? We really don’t _know_ whether he’s even human. Shouldn’t our lazy Congress get off its ass and look into _that_? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/208 "2010-05-15T17:00:57Z")
I heard there is a city, or state, or something _named_ Hawaii in Kenya. Even if it’s not on a map, that doesn’t prove anything. It could have been destroyed anytime after Obama’s birth, or simply removed from maps for security reasons. It’s time for the Kenyan cartographers to come clean. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/209 "2010-05-15T17:12:42Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And let’s also remember dicta can turn out to be very important, especially if later courts have nothing else to go on. > > _See_ _United States v. Carolene Products_, 304 U.S. 144, 152 n.4. For those who aren’t intimately familiar with the cite, it’s noted for a super-duper famous footnote that gave rise to an entirely new level of judicial scrutiny. (Yes, a famous _footnote_. Lawyers are like that. And yes, ‘super-duper’ is Latin.) Here’s the text from [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Carolene_Products_Co.#Text_of_Footnote_Four): > [@](#): > > There may be narrower scope for operation of the presumption of constitutionality when **legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Constitution** , such as those of the first ten amendments, which are deemed equally specific when held to be embraced within the Fourteenth… > > It is unnecessary to consider now whether legislation which restricts those political processes which can ordinarily be expected to bring about repeal of undesirable legislation, is to be subjected to more exacting judicial scrutiny under the general prohibitions of the Fourteenth Amendment than are most other types of legislation. > > Nor need we inquire whether similar considerations enter into the review of statutes directed at particular religious … or national … or racial minorities …: whether prejudice against **discrete and insular minorities** may be a special condition, which tends seriously to curtail the operation of those political processes ordinarily to be relied upon to protect minorities, and which may call for a correspondingly more searching judicial inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/210 "2010-05-16T23:28:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I heard there is a city, or state, or something _named_ Hawaii in Kenya. I quote Jack Black: “Damn, that’s so good it should have been mine.” It hearkens me back to my favorite: The town of Usa (Oo-sa) in Japan, so that all the toys could say, “Made in USA” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/211 "2010-05-16T23:41:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m nitr trying to muddy the waters. I’m fighting ignorance. Which piece of ignorance would that be? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/212 "2010-05-17T09:49:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Come to think of it, has he ever had a DNA test? We really don’t _know_ whether he’s even human. Shouldn’t our lazy Congress get off its ass and look into _that_? I’ve heard he’s actually a woman. Now I’m not saying he _is_, but if he isn’t why is he so reluctant to expose his penis in public to disprove this claim? ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/213 "2010-05-17T12:07:34Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > That shit is as phony as a three dollar bill. There’s no such thing as an “African” race. For that matter, there’s no such thing as a “Caucasian” race. Anyone you know from Caucasia? Do you know where it is? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/214 "2010-05-17T12:10:48Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > For that matter, there’s no such thing as a “Caucasian” race. Anyone you know from Caucasia? Do you know where it is? Erm… they were ancestors of modern pale skins, born in the Caucasus mountain range, weren’t they? Is this a whooosh? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/215 "2010-05-17T13:36:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t think so, hence the absence of legal precedents. I believe every President born post-1783 was born in a U.S. state (or territory?). Very similar allegations were raised about President Arthur and his place of birth. Arthur’s father was a British immigrant from Ireland, who lived in Upper Canada and the United States for several years before naturalizing as an American in 1843. He married an American woman. Arthur was born in 1828 or 1829 (some uncertainty about the exact date), in Vermont. However, there’s no doubt that his parents had lived at some time in Upper Canada. Since citizenship at that time flowed through the father, not the mother, if Arthur was born out of the US he wouldn’t have been born a citizen. If he was born in the US, he would be a citizen, as well as a British subject, since his father was still a British subject. Arthur’s political opponents, including a lawyer, tried to make the case that he had really been born in Ireland and emigrated to the US with his father, or that he had been born in Upper Canada. However, nothing ever came of it. The wiki article on [Arthur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_A._Arthur#Early_life_and_education) summarises it. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/216 "2010-05-17T14:17:54Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’ve heard he’s actually a woman. Now I’m not saying he _is_, but if he isn’t why is he so reluctant to expose his penis in public to disprove this claim? He doesn’t want to make the preceding 43 Presidents to feel inadequate? He is the first Black President 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/217 "2010-05-17T14:27:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Erm… they were ancestors of modern pale skins, born in the Caucasus mountain range, weren’t they? Technical note: No, they were not. When Blumenbach was categorizing his dilineation of races, he proposed that the European peoples had arisen in the Caucasus Mountains, partly based on his view that the current inhabitants of that region were the most beautiful examples of that “race.” Europeans actually migrated out of Africa, just like everyone else, and underwent whatever genetic shifts that created the current crop over time, just like everyone else. The Caucasus was not even a particularly notable stop on their migrations. ---
**Author:** ![JimNightshade](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jimnightshade/32/3354_2.png) [@JimNightshade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimNightshade)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/218 "2010-05-17T14:27:51Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I heard there is a city, or state, or something _named_ Hawaii in Kenya. > > Even if it’s not on a map, that doesn’t prove anything. It could have been destroyed anytime after Obama’s birth, or simply removed from maps for security reasons. > > It’s time for the Kenyan cartographers to come clean. They moved it south, and called it USA river. > **[Usa River, Meru District, Arusha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa_River,_Tanzania)** > > Usa River also known locally as Ussa (Kata ya Usa River in Swahili) is an administrative ward of the Meru District in the Arusha Region of Tanzania. It is the seat of Meru District. To the north and west, the ward is surrounded by the wards of Nkoaranga, Poli, and Seela Sing'isi. To the south and east, respectively, are the wards of Kikwe and Maroroni, and Maji ya Chai. As of 2012, Usa River ward had a population of 23,437. > The postal code for Usa River Ward is 23301. > The ward is divided into... ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/219 "2010-05-17T14:48:39Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > He doesn’t want to make the preceding 43 Presidents to feel inadequate? > > He is the first Black President 😃 Well, there **were** a few eyebrows raised at the “[trouser wrinkle](http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/obama-post-american-world.jpg)” in this picture. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/220 "2010-05-17T15:18:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’ve heard he’s actually a woman. Now I’m not saying he _is_, but if he isn’t why is he so reluctant to expose his penis in public to disprove this claim? Excuse me while I whip this out… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051.md?page=10)