# Birther Mania **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051 "2010-05-11T14:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/21 "2010-05-11T20:12:34Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Aren’t there pictures of Obama’s birth certificate somewhere on the internet? Isn’t this a matter of public record or something? I really don’t get it. What exactly do they want ‘‘released’’? > > Ah, yes, [here we are.](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thestarkperspective.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/obamas-birth-certificate.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thestarkperspective.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/the-birthers-are-back/&usg=__flbp-08rTdHjHZzzqIeSNXrk4LI=&h=786&w=811&sz=93&hl=en&start=2&sig2=mkbsZlJUWP5NAUueW3adxA&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=U45RbG7YaugH0M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=144&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobama%2527s%2Bbirth%2Bcertificate%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=-aPpS7TLNYKBlAfjmZTnCg) Photoshop! And even if it’s real, that just proves it’s \*\*\*a \*\*\*Birth Certificate. How do we know it’s really \*\*\*his \*\*\*Birth Certificate? Really, the only thing that’s going to ‘prove’ anything to these people is…actually, there is nothing that will prove anything to these people. It’s/they’re a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/22 "2010-05-11T20:32:05Z")
That shit is as phony as a three dollar bill. There’s no such thing as an “African” race. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/23 "2010-05-11T20:42:46Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > It is my position that it is incumbent upon the leadership of the GOP to vigorously denounce this movement to save the country and its military from this scourge. You’re not going to see it in the next five months or so. You might, MIGHT get them walking it back around early October to try to take some scare out for those not-real-Americans (ie. non-wingnuts). Might. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/24 "2010-05-11T20:46:50Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > The maximum penalty is a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of pay and seven years in prison. Don’t know if he’ll get all of that, though. Do you know what the standard penalty is though for someone at his rank? And, to make it more interesting, whether the sentence would typically be enhanced if the reason for refusal to follow the commands was deemed to be based on the race of the person giving the order? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/25 "2010-05-11T21:02:32Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Couldn’t view the video, but I’m just wondering if the this Jensen guy was sweating nervously, smoking a cig with a 2-inch ash and fidgeting and shifting his eyes back and forth ala Martin Short as Nathan Thurm. Not exactly, but I did semi-expect Cooper to reach over and slap him and say “I don’t remember askin’ you a god-damned thang!” ala Samuel Jackson/Jules from _Pulp Fiction_. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/26 "2010-05-11T21:10:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Do you know what the standard penalty is though for someone at his rank? And, to make it more interesting, whether the sentence would typically be enhanced if the reason for refusal to follow the commands was deemed to be based on the race of the person giving the order? No, I don’t. The only similar case I can think of is [1st Lt. Ehren Watada](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watada) who was the first officer to refuse to deploy to Iraq. His case ended in a mistrial, though, and then the retrial got hung up on a double jeopardy thing. Kind of a clusterfuck of a case that only resulted in a discharge. Hopefully the Army learned its lesson and will do a better job with Col Lakin. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/27 "2010-05-11T22:02:51Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Aren’t there pictures of Obama’s birth certificate somewhere on the internet? Isn’t this a matter of public record or something? I really don’t get it. What exactly do they want ‘‘released’’? > > Ah, yes, [here we are.](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thestarkperspective.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/obamas-birth-certificate.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thestarkperspective.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/the-birthers-are-back/&usg=__flbp-08rTdHjHZzzqIeSNXrk4LI=&h=786&w=811&sz=93&hl=en&start=2&sig2=mkbsZlJUWP5NAUueW3adxA&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=U45RbG7YaugH0M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=144&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dobama%2527s%2Bbirth%2Bcertificate%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=-aPpS7TLNYKBlAfjmZTnCg) > > My uncle was born in the exact same hospital as Barrack Obama. He says that his own birth certificate looks exactly like Obama’s. (Only, you know, with a different name.) If only this fine soldier was informed of that fact, I’m sure he’d see the light of reason and return to duty. So ,your uncle is a Kenyan? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/28 "2010-05-11T22:28:33Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So ,your uncle is a Kenyan? 😛 That’s the most insane thing: literally _NOTHING_ will satisfy these people. Also, there’s two parts to proving he wasn’t born here- in addition to proving he wasn’t born in Hawaii (which of course can’t be done since, among other reasons, he was) why don’t they look for evidence he _was_ born in Kenya (or Saudi Arabia or Iran or wherever the hell they think he was born)? Also, isn’t “natural born citizen” a rather vague term? Playing Fanatic’s Advocate for a moment, let’s assume that Obama was born like the Emperor Frederick II (whose mother Constance intentionally gave birth in the middle of a public square to quiet rumors that she was faking her pregnancy) and that square was in Nairobi and there were photographers standing all around- doesn’t the fact his mother was- and there is no question of this- an American make him a natural born citizen? 1- he was naturally born [i.e. not adopted] 2- he was born a citizen, same as the kids of U.S. servicemen even if they’re not born on base. Also, IF Stanley Ann Dunham Obama had decided, for whatever the hell reason, to accompany her husband to Kenya to give birth (which, considering that he had a wife and child there already he might or might not have divorced and might or might not have even told her about and they were both broke students and air travel was more expensive then than it is now in real dollars- it’s unlikely they would have done this) wouldn’t she have immediately (or at least as soon as she was up and around) have registered his birth at the nearest U.S. consulate or embassy? Nobody had any reason to believe this biracial baby would one day be president (this being in 1961 when the Obama-Dunham marriage wasn’t even legal in some states of the U.S. and they were not from wealthy or politically connected parentage)- nobody even had any reason in 2004 to believe he’d be president in a few years- so there would have been no reason for a cover-up and no ability to pull those strings if they had sought to cover it up. They never once tried to cover up the fact that Barack Obama, Sr., had a previous wife and child and thus the marriage may not have been legal. They never once tried to cover up that Stanley Ann Dunham was 18 and unmarried when she became pregnant. They never once tried to cover up that Barack, Jr. lived some of his formative years in a predominantly Muslim non U.S. country. Why would they try to cover up his birth and, for that matter, HOW would this family (the Dunhams) have managed that if they had wanted to? True, Barack Sr. was a government employed economist, but that had jack to do with any authority in the U.S. embassy in Kenya and probably very little to do with whatever vital records are kept in Kenya itself. All of this makes me wonder- do the birthers really believe their bullshit or is it a total mcguffin to draw attention away from something else? And would there have been this much outcry if McCain had been elected- a man who was born in Panama and it would be a helluva lot easier for a man whose father was a naval officer to fudge records that his kid was born on American soil in Panama rather than off-base than for an 18 year old white American college student to fudge them in Kenya. The first decade of the 21st century is probably going to have as many historians as the Civil War has now just because it’s going to take Ph.D.s devoting whole careers to it to even trying to figure it out, from declaring a war on Muslim fundamentalists by taking out the only non-fundamentalist leader in a region to religious right screaming in favor of torture and against healthcare reform to how a man can be both a Muslim and under the Svengaliesque control of an unorthodox Christian minister to… Sarah Palin. If early 21st century politics were a TV show it would be risking cancellation for too many absurd and unbelievable plot twists and side characters. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/29 "2010-05-11T22:38:56Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > That’s the most insane thing: literally _NOTHING_ will satisfy these people. Also, there’s two parts to proving he wasn’t born here- in addition to proving he wasn’t born in Hawaii (which of course can’t be done since, among other reasons, he was) why don’t they look for evidence he _was_ born in Kenya (or Saudi Arabia or Iran or wherever the hell they think he was born)? I understand one piece of “evidence” involves a claim by Obama’s paternal grandmother that she was present at his birth in Kenya, which is fine, as long as you ignore the followup questions about it being a translation error that was promptly and emphatically corrected as soon as it was pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/30 "2010-05-11T22:57:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I understand one piece of “evidence” involves a claim by Obama’s paternal grandmother that she was present at his birth in Kenya, which is fine, as long as you ignore the followup questions about it being a translation error that was promptly and emphatically corrected as soon as it was pointed out. Her passport records would answer that question once and for all, as would Stanley Ann’s. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/31 "2010-05-11T23:21:11Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Also, isn’t “natural born citizen” a rather vague term? You have no idea. I almost hate to subject the board to the editorial I’m about to link to, but here goes: [Are we going to allow Lt. Col Terry Lakin to go to prison?](http://www.examiner.com/x-24054-Sioux-Falls-Conservative-Examiner~y2010m4d26-Are-we-going-to-allow-Lt-Col-Terry-Lakin-go-to-prison) > [@](#): > > Everyone wants to keep making the issue more complicated than it is. There is no need of uncovering sealed documents to prove this case. There is no need of obtaining a real long-form birth certificate. These are all practically unobtainable distractions from the simple core facts. \*\*It is what it is by virtue of not being born to TWO US citizens which he freely admits and is a requirement to be considered “Natural Born”. \*\* wow. Those are some pretty mobile goalposts right there. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/32 "2010-05-12T00:25:14Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > 😛 > > That’s the most insane thing: literally _NOTHING_ will satisfy these people. Also, there’s two parts to proving he wasn’t born here- in addition to proving he wasn’t born in Hawaii (which of course can’t be done since, among other reasons, he was) why don’t they look for evidence he _was_ born in Kenya (or Saudi Arabia or Iran or wherever the hell they think he was born)? You kidding? Even today Kenya is nothing but huts made out of shit and straw. Can you imagine what it was like 40 years ago? They didn’t have PAPER, how the hell is anyone going to find records from there? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/33 "2010-05-12T02:44:26Z")
[From Slate, 2008:](http://www.slate.com/id/2206033/) > [@](#): > > How did the citizenship rumor get started? Ironically, it began when the Obama campaign tried to debunk some other conspiracies. After Obama locked up the nomination in early June, low-level talk radio and blog chatter peddled rumors that Obama’s real middle name was Muhammad, that his father was not really Barack Obama, and that he was not really born in Hawaii. The campaign released a facsimile of Obama’s certificate of live birth. Requested from the state in 2007, the certificate reported that Obama was, indeed, born in Honolulu at 7:24 p.m. on Aug. 4, 1961. > > The certificate was a bullet that didn’t put down the horse. Why, skeptics asked, release a new form from Hawaii instead of the original paper that Obama’s parents got in 1961—the one that Obama found in a box of his dad’s knickknacks in Dreams From My Father? They quickly came up with an explanation: The certificate was forged. Anonymous digital image experts with handles like Techdude and Polarik sprung from the woodwork to prove (shades of Rathergate!) that pixels, spacing, and indentation on the form indicated that the Obama campaign had created the certificate with Adobe Photoshop. The state of Hawaii’s official statement that the certificate was legitimate didn’t make a dent—after all, who is Registrar of Vital Statistics Alvin Onaka to argue with Techdude? > > This “forgery” became an article of faith in the Obama conspiracy community. When a Hillary Clinton supporter found a birth announcement for Obama from the Aug. 13, 1961, edition of the Honolulu Advertiser, the theorists were unbowed: After all, the Obama family could have phoned that in from Kenya. When Pennsylvania lawyer Philip J. Berg filed the first birth-related injunction against Obama this August, asking that Obama be ruled “ineligible to run for United States Office of the President,” he alleged that the certificate had been proved a forgery by the “extensive Forensic testing” of anonymous experts and claimed that Obama’s campaign had simply inserted his name over that of his half-sister, Maya. That would have been quite a trick, as Maya Soetoro-Ng was actually born in Indonesia. ---
**Author:** ![usar\_jag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f0a364/32.png) [@usar\_jag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usar_jag)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/34 "2010-05-12T02:55:40Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > The maximum penalty is a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of pay and seven years in prison. Don’t know if he’ll get all of that, though. Officers cannot get a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge. I think the most confinement time he could get is 2 years; however, the most likely outcome is that he will be separated with a Other than Honorable or General discharge, and lose some (if not all) of his entitlements. I’m not sure this is an issue that I would want to make a stance on… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/35 "2010-05-12T10:16:40Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > It is my position that it is incumbent upon the leadership of the GOP to vigorously denounce this movement to save the country and its military from this scourge. You phrase this as though you think “GOP leadership” has the country’s interests at heart. 😕 Where have you been? By the way, do birthers have an explanation for why Stanley Ann Dunham flew secretly out of the country to give birth? Was it to save money on the Satanic sacrificial blood ceremony? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/36 "2010-05-12T10:27:30Z")
Can someone tell me when the first instance of doubt in Obama’s birthplace came about? I’m going to guess it was around the time he first looked likely to become president. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/37 "2010-05-12T16:19:26Z")
I’m just amazed that somebody who made it through medical school can believe this shit. ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/38 "2010-05-12T16:40:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > 😛 > doesn’t the fact his mother was- and there is no question of this- an American make him a natural born citizen? 1- he was naturally born [i.e. not adopted] 2- he was born a citizen, same as the kids of U.S. servicemen even if they’re not born on base. The birthers certainly agree with that, at least when “he” refers to John McCain. Can’t imagine why they don’t think it applies equally to Obama. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/39 "2010-05-12T16:42:42Z")
> [@descamisado](#): > > That shit is as phony as a three dollar bill. There’s no such thing as an “African” race. Is that why Kenyans always come over here to race in our marathons? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/40 "2010-05-12T17:12:40Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Also, isn’t “natural born citizen” a rather vague term? Playing Fanatic’s Advocate for a moment, let’s assume that Obama was born like the Emperor Frederick II (whose mother Constance intentionally gave birth in the middle of a public square to quiet rumors that she was faking her pregnancy) and that square was in Nairobi and there were photographers standing all around- doesn’t the fact his mother was- and there is no question of this- an American make him a natural born citizen? 1- he was naturally born [i.e. not adopted] 2- he was born a citizen, same as the kids of U.S. servicemen even if they’re not born on base. The Birthers are alleging that Sue wasn’t 18 yet at the time of Barack’s birth, which under the law in effect at the time made him ineligible for citizenship under the _jus sanguinus_ doctrine (ie. a minor parent could not confer birthright citzenship at that time). > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Can someone tell me when the first instance of doubt in Obama’s birthplace came about? I’m going to guess it was around the time he first looked likely to become president. It was actually the Clinton campaign that made it an issue (during the Democratic primaries). > [@Sampiro](#): > > I’m just amazed that somebody who made it through medical school can believe this shit. I doubt he actually believes it. He just wants his 15 seconds and/or an xcuse not to deploy that won’t make him look like a coward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051.md?page=3)