# Birther Mania **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051 "2010-05-11T14:58:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/121 "2010-05-13T06:48:55Z")
They’re on the same ticket, but they’re technically a separate election. That’s actually VERY technical because, technically, you’re voting for electors, not directly for candidates, and the electors are pledged to the given collective ticket, but ultra-technically. The VP is still elected independently of the President. You can’t, for instance, vote Obama for Prez and Sarah Palin for veep, because you’re never really voting directly for the candidates anyway, but for electors pledged to a combined ticket. Legally (though this never happens, and it would be considered _extremely_ dishonorable among electors) electors could split their vote between a Dem Prez and a GOP Veep. The elections are, for pedantic, hyper-legal purposes, separate and independent. Originally, VP candidates didn’t even exist. Whatever POTUS candidate got the second most votes was VP. It was an experiment that didn’t work too well. You ended up wiyth VP’s who hated the President and who were not too concerned about his health, much less his politcal well-being. ETA it looks like you figured it out while I was typing anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Amber\_in\_Treasury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Amber\_in\_Treasury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amber_in_Treasury)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/122 "2010-05-13T09:52:55Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > One other thing: It’s “Lakin”, people. There is no “r”. > > “Lakin” not “Larkin” Maybe they thought he was related to that dirty unamerican commie Jim Larkin? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/123 "2010-05-13T12:12:12Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > One other thing: It’s “Lakin”, people. There is no “r”. > > “Lakin” not “Larkin” Those 2, they fuck you up, They may not mean to, but they do. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/124 "2010-05-13T12:18:17Z")
Oh look, same guy as usual trolls as usual and mods ignore it as usual. Gotta keep things fair and balanced, after all. Good job, mods! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/125 "2010-05-13T12:38:15Z")
Oh, shut the fuck up, **Merijeek**. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/126 "2010-05-13T13:22:21Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Here’s how the fuck up at the top would work out. The Supreme Court would have to decide. Them and ONLY them. If they rule that Obama’s birth doesn’t meet constitutional muster, it goes to succession. If Obama isn’t valid, then it’s Biden. Then the Supreme Court would have to decide if Biden was even elected VP in the first place. That’s a sticky one. No, it isn’t. Even if the most preposterous Birther fever dreams somehow turn out to be true, that has no bearing on the fact that Biden was elected Vice President of the United States by the Electoral College: [QUOTE=Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution] The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and **in distinct ballots** the person voted for as Vice-President [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/127 "2010-05-13T13:35:52Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > No, it isn’t. Even if the most preposterous Birther fever dreams somehow turn out to be true, that has no bearing on the fact that Biden was elected Vice President of the United States by the Electoral College: Yeah, I gave **Dio** the point about the electoral college, too. But you have to admit that that would be awful fucking sticky. There would be hundreds of court cases challenging Biden’s presidency. There is absolutely NO precedent for the courts to go on, so we would see not only a SCOTUS headache, but constitutional amendments being proposed out of every pore of Congress. It would be the clusterfuck beyond all clusterfucks. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/128 "2010-05-13T13:42:18Z")
Look, morons, you guys sure nake it hard to educate your dumb asses. I don’t know whether I am a NBC (and I was born in the US to a US mother and father, at least AFAIK). If Frank had asked me that same repeated question about any other POTUS, I would give the same answer. I don’t stay up at night worrying about whether Obama is an NBC or not, and I have no reason to doubt that he is. I’m just trying to illustrate that you can’t just decide what some term means in the constitution (or any other law) and decide that you are right. It doesn’t work that way. You can make a good guess based on textual and contextual evidence, and that’s fine, but it’s still just a good guess until the SC gets involved. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/129 "2010-05-13T14:01:22Z")
We’ve moved on a bit from that, buddy. Go back to reading _Atlas Shrugged_. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/130 "2010-05-13T14:39:29Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > There would be hundreds of court cases challenging Biden’s presidency. Probably (given that there are hundred of crackpots with nothing better to do), but each of them would result in quick dismissal citing the Twelfth Amendment provision stating that the Vice President is elected separately from the President. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/131 "2010-05-13T14:44:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m just trying to illustrate that you can’t just decide what some term means in the constitution (or any other law) and decide that you are right. It doesn’t work that way. You can make a good guess based on textual and contextual evidence, and that’s fine, but it’s still just a good guess until the SC gets involved. Just curious, and I decided to get a little silly considering the spirit of your posts. Given the importance of the term “naturally born” I’m starting to wonder if Obama was delivered by c-section. maybe we need an autopsy on his mother. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/132 "2010-05-13T14:49:15Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Look, morons, you guys sure nake it hard to educate your dumb asses. I don’t know whether I am a NBC (and I was born in the US to a US mother and father, at least AFAIK). If Frank had asked me that same repeated question about any other POTUS, I would give the same answer. I don’t stay up at night worrying about whether Obama is an NBC or not, and I have no reason to doubt that he is. > > I’m just trying to illustrate that you can’t just decide what some term means in the constitution (or any other law) and decide that you are right. It doesn’t work that way. You can make a good guess based on textual and contextual evidence, and that’s fine, but it’s still just a good guess until the SC gets involved. I don’t care about the definition of a NBC and didn’t ask you. My question is far more simple: Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/133 "2010-05-13T14:59:00Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Probably (given that there are hundred of crackpots with nothing better to do), but each of them would result in quick dismissal citing the Twelfth Amendment provision stating that the Vice President is elected separately from the President. And most of the lawsuits would be successful, because their purpose would not be to oust Biden, but to harass him. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/134 "2010-05-13T15:01:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And most of the lawsuits would be successful, because their purpose would not be to oust Biden, but to harass him. I wonder if SCOTUS would anticipate that and try to handle it in the first ruling. Can they? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/135 "2010-05-13T15:05:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And most of the lawsuits would be successful, because their purpose would not be to oust Biden, but to harass him. Meh. There is always a flurry of lawsuits from people accusing the government of shooting mind-control beams at them or planting chips in their heads or making their begonias die or something. It’s not as if Biden would have to personally deal with the nonsense (no doubt some of the lawsuits would attempt to depose him in both senses of the term, but these demands would surely be rejected without further ado). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/136 "2010-05-13T15:09:11Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Meh. There is always a flurry of lawsuits from people accusing the government of shooting mind-control beams at them or planting chips in their heads or making their begonias die or something. It’s not as if Biden would have to personally deal with the nonsense (no doubt some of the lawsuits would attempt to depose him in both senses of the term, but these demands would surely be rejected without further ado). This would be totally different, though. It would be an organized effort, timed to harass, with real lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/137 "2010-05-13T15:14:01Z")
The suits would be summarily dismissed, and dimissed with prejudice. They wouldn’t harrass Biden because he’d never have to respond to them. At worst, they might be a minor nuisance to some federal courts, but those filing would be reaping negative returns. They’d just be pissing away money on materials and filing fees for complaints that would be disposed of out of hand and never heard. The filers would also be told not to try again. There would be no profit in it. They’d even be risking penalties for filing frivolously. Such attempts would be patently frivolous and with even less _prima facie_ merit than the Birther suits. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/138 "2010-05-13T15:15:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This would be totally different, though. It would be an organized effort, timed to harass, with real lawyers. No, it won’t – “real lawyers” have too much to lose if they get sanctioned for bringing frivolous lawsuits. It will be the usual (to [coin a phrase](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1115/is-u-s-income-tax-invalid-because-ohio-wasnt-legally-a-state-when-the-16th-amendment-was-ratified)) clowns seeking to have the government dissolved due to clerical error. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/139 "2010-05-13T15:18:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t care about the definition of a NBC and didn’t ask you. My question is far more simple: Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, yes or no? Why are you and Frank so interested in what I think about these Birther-related issues? I’ve been told that Obama was born in the US, and I have no facts disputing that. If you tell me that you were born in the US and then ask me if I believe that you were born in the US, I’d say the same thing. Also, I’d say the same thing about myself. Also, you are wrong about the Jones Act. It looks like you were looking at the US flag and ownership requirements, but the tort issues covered by the Jones Act don’t have anything to do with whether a vessel is carrying cargo or passengers–the critical question is just whether something is a vessel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051/140 "2010-05-13T15:30:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Why are you and Frank so interested in what I think about these Birther-related issues? Why have you been so reluctant to give a straight forward answer? I guess i’m just curious as to whether you have any intellectual honsety or integrity at all. > [@](#): > > I’ve been told that Obama was born in the US, and I have no facts disputing that. If you tell me that you were born in the US and then ask me if I believe that you were born in the US, I’d say the same thing. Also, I’d say the same thing about myself. Still very couched and qualified (and not entirely ingenuous. We have a lot more evdience than “being told” to corroborate Obama’s birthplace). How about this: Do you believe there is any reasonable possibility that Obama was born outside the US and that there is a conspiracy to conceal that fact from the American people? Is this a hypothesis which you believe has the slightest legitimate merit or plausibilty I’m not aking about absolute possibilities, because obviously, it’s theoretically “possible” that Barack Obama is one of the lizard people from Neptune. I’m asking about laugh test plausibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-mania/539051.md?page=8)