# Birther type people outside the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567 "2013-02-17T02:18:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/1 "2013-02-17T02:18:23Z")
Outside the US, has there ever been a group of people who say the president or PM was not eligible to hold their position? For any reason, not just based on where they were born. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/2 "2013-02-17T02:32:52Z")
There was a Quebec cabinet minister (and member of National Assembly) named Marie Malavoy who was forced to resign (and maybe fined) because she was not a Canadian citizen. A fierce separatist, she didn’t want to swear an oath to the Queen and ran and voted anyway. She did eventually become a citizen and even be in the current government. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/3 "2013-02-17T04:16:56Z")
Alberto Fujimori, former president of Peru, had his own birthers who claimed he was born in Japan. Peru has the same requirement for the president being natural born as the US. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/4 "2013-02-17T04:38:25Z")
To prepare the populace for the upcoming usurpation of William of Orange the traitors persuaded them that the baby James — whose birth had been watched by a large number of witnesses as was customary for royal births — was another baby smuggled in within a warming pan by Jesuits in order to prevent the protestant succession. New-born babies probably don’t travel well in flat copper pans, and might conceivably not remain silent whilst within; so after he became James III & VIII, this particular rumour was not dwelt upon once it had served it’s propaganda purposes. But the idiot mass definitely believed, or pretended to believe, it. On the other hand, pretending the Stuart heir was not the right child was getting to be a tradition: they tried such rumours with James I & VI and Charles I before. Since attacking someone for acting as a King is not enough, you have to assert they are not the real King also. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/5 "2013-02-17T04:55:55Z")
We had a case in Spain in which a candidacy to senator was brought into question because the candidate was 17 at the time; note that this was a legitimate question, brought up to the voting commission via appropriate channels and before the election. He was allowed to run since he would be 18 at the time of the swearing-in and what the law says is that you have to be 18 to swear in, not to be elected. Which he was, both that time and when he ran for reelection four years later. We expect him to hold our record for youngest senator for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/6 "2013-02-17T12:08:34Z")
Obama was not the first president to have this type of issue [Chester A. Arthur - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_A._Arthur) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/7 "2013-02-17T12:19:59Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > To prepare the populace for the upcoming usurpation of William of Orange the traitors persuaded them that the baby James — whose birth had been watched by a large number of witnesses as was customary for royal births — was another baby smuggled in within a warming pan by Jesuits in order to prevent the protestant succession. > > New-born babies probably don’t travel well in flat copper pans, and might conceivably not remain silent whilst within; so after he became James III & VIII, this particular rumour was not dwelt upon once it had served it’s propaganda purposes. But the idiot mass definitely believed, or pretended to believe, it. You realize that he never actually was James III & VIII, right? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/8 "2013-02-17T13:28:39Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There was a Quebec cabinet minister (and member of National Assembly) named Marie Malavoy who was forced to resign (and maybe fined) because she was not a Canadian citizen. A fierce separatist, she didn’t want to swear an oath to the Queen and ran and voted anyway. She did eventually become a citizen and even be in the current government. But this is an actual example of someone who was not qualified to hold the office, correct? Not like the birthers, who simply refuse to accept that Obama is qualified, no matter how much evidence is presented. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/9 "2013-02-17T20:52:13Z")
Several Caribbean politicians have had their eligibility to hold office questioned due to holding dual citizenship. Typically the law may permit a candidate to hold dual citizenship but limit office holders to a single citizenship. Former Jamaican Prime Minister Edward Seaga gave up his American citizenship in order to remove any perceived doubt as to where his loyalties lay. Seage held American citizenship due to his birth in Boston, MA to Jamaican parents. His family returned to Jamaica when he was an infant. More recently Jamaican Member of Parliament Daryl Vaz was disqualified from holding office by the court. Vaz relinquished his American passport to remain in office. Vaz was born in Jamaica to a Jamaican father and an American mother. Jamaican MP Sharon Hay-Webster was the center of another dual citizenship scandal. Her eligibility to hold office was challenged during her third term in office. She publicly announced in 2009 that she would renounce her American citizen. But the WikiLeaks leak of US Diplomatic cables in 2011 revealed that she had withdrawn her application to renounced her American citizenship. She lost her bid for reelection in 2011. Hay-Webster was born in New Jersey and her parents moved back to Jamaica when she was a few months old. She gained her Jamaican citizenship via naturalization. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/10 "2013-02-17T21:27:18Z")
Adolf Hitler was a citizen of Austria. He did not become a German citizen until February 25th, 1932, when he was sworn in as civil servant for the Free State of Brunswick (Freistaat Braunschweig), which was a part of the German empire. The whole procedure was somewhat dubious and fishy because they used an arcane statutory provision. After 1933, nobody really felt inclined to raise the issue of Hitler’s citizenship in public. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/11 "2013-02-18T10:27:02Z")
Is it even possible for this (i.e. quibbling about origin of an office holder) to be an issue in the UK and other Commonwealth countries? As far as I know, there are no legal restrictions on who can hold the office of PM, be an MP or Lord or even the Queen (half of the list of succession are foreigners). For example, wasn’t the current Australian PM born in Wales? ---
**Author:** ![tellyworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@tellyworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tellyworth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/12 "2013-02-18T10:38:23Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > For example, wasn’t the current Australian PM born in Wales? Correct, Julia Gillard moved to Australia when she was about 5. The office of PM is not a special one, constitutionally speaking, so restrictions on holding that office are the same as for a MP or Senator, as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/13 "2013-02-18T10:42:00Z")
I’ve encountered many bitter British republicans who make heavy weather of the original royal family surname being Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/14 "2013-02-18T10:57:28Z")
It was the (partial) cause of the first civil war in Ivory Coast: a new law was quickly drafted before the elections of 2000, requiring that to be president both parents would have to have been born in Ivory Coast. This at the time excluded Ouattara, though I think his parents were only excluded because the borders changed, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/15 "2013-02-18T10:58:44Z")
With MP’s (Minister President, our equivalent to the POTUS) in the Netherlands, no, not in the last century. > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I’ve encountered many bitter British republicans who make heavy weather of the original royal family surname being Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Same here. They would have a point, too. For the last 150 years, our Dutch kings and Queens have married Germans. Our last king married an Argentinian wife. So anyone who says that our Royals are about 10 percent Dutch and about 90 % foreign, is quite simply right. But no-one uses the birther argument that therefore they shouldn’t wear a crown. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/16 "2013-02-18T11:44:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You realize that he never actually was James III & VIII, right? I realise nothing of the kind: my King is Francis II, Duke of Bavaria; and his line will remain so when all the presidents and Windsors are dust in the wind. Nor, as a royalist, would I care if the monarch was a Congolese pygmy, he’d still be King by right of blood. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/17 "2013-02-18T11:52:53Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Several Caribbean politicians have had their eligibility to hold office questioned due to holding dual citizenship. Typically the law may permit a candidate to hold dual citizenship but limit office holders to a single citizenship. So, how would that work out if the person happens to have Jamaican citizenship and also citizenship in a country that does not permit renunciation of citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/18 "2013-02-18T12:18:46Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Is it even possible for this (i.e. quibbling about origin of an office holder) to be an issue in the UK and other Commonwealth countries? As far as I know, there are no legal restrictions on who can hold the office of PM, be an MP or Lord or even the Queen (half of the list of succession are foreigners). For example, wasn’t the current Australian PM born in Wales? I’m not sure about the rest of the commonwealth, but in the UK you can become an MP if you hold British citizenship or citizenship in a British Overseas territories or a part of the commonwealth (so technically a Canadian or Australian could become an MP, provided he or she put down their £500 and got 10 signatures). You used to have to be natural born up until the 80’s though, so it might have happened. There’s a long list of non-nationality related reasons someone can’t be an MP, though (technically if an MP started to lose their hearing or ability to speak they could be forced out of office, but that doesn’t seem to be enforced). ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/19 "2013-02-18T12:47:34Z")
Previous SD topic along similar lines: [How many countries have a "natural born citizen" requirement for their head of state/head of gov't? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=527805) Slightly different as it’s Heads of State rather than elected leaders but the thread does link to this Wiki entry: [List of presidential qualifications by country - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_becoming_a_president) ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567/20 "2013-02-18T14:51:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > So, how would that work out if the person happens to have Jamaican citizenship and also citizenship in a country that does not permit renunciation of citizenship? In the cases I have found so far that has not been an issue. The most common second citizenship for these Caribbean basin politicos has been American and the US does allow both dual citizenship and renunciation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-type-people-outside-the-us/650567.md?page=2)