# Birther U.S. Army officer to be court-martialed **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157 "2010-04-15T02:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/21 "2010-04-15T13:24:44Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > …Dude- the CJ of the SCotUS swore him in- he’s president. Period… Nitpick: “Chief Justice of the United States.” But who swore him in is less important than who ratified his election as President: the Electoral College, just as the Constitution requires. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/22 "2010-04-15T13:33:26Z")
Can Orly do lawyerin’ work at a court-martial, or is she limited to “practicing law” (I use the term loosely) in civilian courts? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/23 "2010-04-15T13:36:48Z")
Yes, military personnel may have civilian counsel in courts-martial. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/24 "2010-04-15T13:43:18Z")
Somehow, I have a feeling that a court-marshal will be even less tolerent to her BS then the civilian judge she pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/25 "2010-04-15T14:02:34Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Nitpick: “Chief Justice of the United States.” But who swore him in is less important than who ratified his election as President: the Electoral College, just as the Constitution requires. Yep. The last Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Morrison Remick Waite, died March 23, 1888. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/26 "2010-04-15T14:30:42Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > > [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > > > Nitpick: “Chief Justice of the United States.” But who swore him in is less important than who ratified his election as President: the Electoral College, just as the Constitution requires. > > Yep. The last Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Morrison Remick Waite, died March 23, 1888. Nitpick: Yes, the formal title is “chief justice of the United States.” However, the phrase “chief justice of the Supreme Court” is a perfectly correct description of the position and need not be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/27 "2010-04-15T14:47:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Is there no end to this idiocy? The guy’s risking his career over this: [http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/14/army-to-court-martial-officer-who-doubts-obama-was-born-in-u-s/](http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/14/army-to-court-martial-officer-who-doubts-obama-was-born-in-u-s/). Risking his career? How terrible for him- he’ll receive a dishonorable discharge and have to learn to live on minimum wage as a physician in the private sector. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/28 "2010-04-15T14:57:03Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Is there no end to this idiocy? The guy’s risking his career over this: [http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/14/army-to-court-martial-officer-who-doubts-obama-was-born-in-u-s/](http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/14/army-to-court-martial-officer-who-doubts-obama-was-born-in-u-s/). Would he feel better if Joe Biden signed his orders? What worries me after reading the article is: how widespread is this belief amongst military personnel? You’re going to have nutjobs in any profession, but these are the people protecting us. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/29 "2010-04-15T15:03:51Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Ouch. He’s got 18 years in. Throwing away a very nice retirement with health insurance for life, over bullshit. True - but that health insurance is socialist government healthcare. So really - this is just his plan to avoid the deathpanel when he retires. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/30 "2010-04-15T15:12:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Risking his career? How terrible for him- he’ll receive a dishonorable discharge and have to learn to live on minimum wage as a physician in the private sector. 😃 Nitpick: only enlisted Soldiers are discharged (under the categories Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions, Other Than Honorable, Bad Conduct, or Dishonorable). Commissioned officers can be dismissed, which is the functional equivalent of a dishonorable discharge. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/31 "2010-04-15T15:14:42Z")
Barack Obama has been President for over a year. Did Lakin (I’m omitting his military intentionally as he seems to feel it doesn’t mean anything) just notice it? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Lakin suddenly decided he wasn’t obliged to follow orders at the same time those orders required him to go to Afghanistan. Apparently he could accept President Obama as his commander-in-chief as long as his military service wasn’t too difficult. But once Lakin was given an order he didn’t like he suddenly became a barracks lawyer. I think he’s just looking to avoid active duty and his birther claims are just an excuse. I say court martial him and lock him up for dereliction of duty. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/32 "2010-04-15T15:25:55Z")
> [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](#): > > What worries me after reading the article is: how widespread is this belief amongst military personnel? You’re going to have nutjobs in any profession, but these are the people protecting us. Since there have only been a dozen or so of these cases despite Orly Taitz actively soliciting soldiers to join her suits, not very. > [@Camus](#): > > Nitpick: only enlisted Soldiers are discharged (under the categories Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions, Other Than Honorable, Bad Conduct, or Dishonorable). > > Commissioned officers can be dismissed, which is the functional equivalent of a dishonorable discharge. Noted, thanks. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But once Lakin was given an order he didn’t like he suddenly became a barracks lawyer. I think he’s just looking to avoid active duty and his birther claims are just an excuse. I thought that was obvious. There’s no way he actually believes this shit. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/33 "2010-04-15T15:48:56Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > What is up with Army doctors? I believe one of the other birthers was also an MD, as was the Ft. Hood assasin. “\*Another \*missing case of morphine, private? What the hell’s going on here?” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/34 "2010-04-15T15:53:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I thought that was obvious. There’s no way he actually believes this shit. That depends on how you want to view it. I suspect that he honestly believes that he believes. But at the same time, people have a knack for coming to believe things that suit their own interest when the pressure’s on. It’s not machination, that’s just the way we’re built. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/35 "2010-04-15T15:53:54Z")
Since this thread already has nitpicks, let’s add a couple more. The term for a military court is _court-martial_. A poster above used the correct plural form: _courts-martial_. Separation from the service has two parts: (1) characterization of service and (2) type of separation. The term _Dishonorable Discharge_ is the most commonly known (in my experience) by the general civilian population. _Dishonorable_ is the most severe of the negative characterizations. _Discharge_ means that there is no more association, such as a Reserve obligation, with the Armed Forces. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/36 "2010-04-15T15:58:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That depends on how you want to view it. I suspect that he honestly believes that he believes. But at the same time, people have a knack for coming to believe things that suit their own interest when the pressure’s on. It’s not machination, that’s just the way we’re built. Yes, but why didn’t he honestly believe that he believed when he wasn’t being shipped to Iraq? You can’t tell me he hasn’t received a single order in the last 14 months except the reassignment. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/37 "2010-04-15T16:00:21Z")
> [@](#): > > That depends on how you want to view it. I suspect that he honestly believes that he believes. But at the same time, people have a knack for coming to believe things that suit their own interest when the pressure’s on. It’s not machination, that’s just the way we’re built. I don’t know. If he had said all this back in January of 2009, I’d still think he was nuts but I’d be willing to believe he was at least honest about it. The timing of him suddenly developing this belief (or at least developing the need to act on it) at the same time he was being ordered to deploy makes it look pretty calculated to me. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/38 "2010-04-15T16:00:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but why didn’t he honestly believe that he believed when he wasn’t being shipped to Iraq? You can’t tell me he hasn’t received a single order in the last 14 months except the reassignment. You know what would be the most amusing part of this stupidity of his? If he’s received a promotion since Obama became President! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/39 "2010-04-15T16:06:16Z")
Let’s note a couple of facts here. This clown is wrong and deserves to be court-martialed. No question about that. I find it interesting, though, that when this sort of thing cropped up in the last administration, and officers or enlisted personnel would attempt to substitute their own private opinions for lawful orders, they would find defenders here. What is the difference, really, between Lakin and the Watada case that was much discussed here? And why will Watada find some sympathy on this board but Lakin find none? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157/40 "2010-04-15T16:18:27Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I find it interesting, though, that when this sort of thing cropped up in the last administration, and officers or enlisted personnel would attempt to substitute their own private opinions for lawful orders, they would find defenders here. What is the difference, really, between Lakin and the Watada case that was much discussed here? And why will Watada find some sympathy on this board but Lakin find none? Watada was right and Lakin is wrong? That said, I would have supported any judgment against Watada because he waited until he actually received deployment orders to challenge the legality of the war. Obviously, that would set a very dangerous precedent. If Watada had requested to be released from his commission as soon as the war began, I’d have had no problem with his action. Same goes for Lakin (substituting Obama’s inauguration for the start of the war), although I’d have laughed at him. ETA: It’s worth noting that Watada claimed he was willing to go to prison to make his point. Do you think any of the birther refusers are as sincere in their beliefs? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birther-u-s-army-officer-to-be-court-martialed/536157.md?page=3)