# Bishop John Shelby Spong: heretic or visionary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016 "2003-02-28T00:00:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/101 "2003-03-05T20:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > **Me:** _Au contraire_. There is one basic principle, clearly found in Scripture and in fact taught by Spong himself, that spells out a standard for human behavior: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength. And you shall love your neighbor as yourself. In these two commandments are all the Law and the Prophets.” **Polycarp** while that may be revealed, it’s certainly not objective. How do you determine objectively if someone does in fact love God and man as Jesus indicated? [/QUOTE] Forgive me for quoting Scripture in response to your request for an “objective” referent, but I think you’ll agree that it’s a valid, objectively verifiable answer: > [@](#): > > By their fruits shall you know them. > [@](#): > > Being sincere could cover many topics. However, sincerely feeling that I can walk on water does not make it true. I don’t believe Spong has any right to claim he is called by God, because he does not believe in God. Compare the quote you gave to the one I typed verbatim from the first chapter of _Why Christianity Must Change or Die_ on the first page of this thread. What you’re saying, **GOM** , sounds to me like, if he doesn’t accept my idea of what God is, he doesn’t believe in God at all. That’s very much a “No true Scotchman” sort of argument. I do respect your view that Spong’s definition is so far from describing your view as to be something wholly different – but I honestly think that his conceptualization of God and your own are not incommensurate – and both describe and refer to the reality bigger than any of the three of us can grasp. I think a big part of the problem is that we have no agreed-upon working definition of “God” as a term in discourse – and I’m not sure that one is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/102 "2003-03-05T20:51:44Z")
> [@](#): > > **GOM** said: > Being sincere could cover many topics. However, sincerely feeling that I can walk on water does not make it true. I don’t believe Spong has any right to claim he is called by God, because he does not believe in God. This is just factually untrue. He may not conceptualize God the way you do but his is definitely not an atheist. > [@](#): > > **Mars Horizon** said: > Now what place does Christ have in my faith? Well, I really dislike the term “faith” - I don’t need “faith” - defined as “trust in some unprovable assertion” - in order to be complete as a human being. My apologies if that’s not a word you’re comfortable with. I was responding to your own use of the term in your previous post. > [@](#): > > and that True Faith is our faith in each other - and that faith is watered by experience so that it must grow and change as we learn over time. I didn’t mean to imply a supernatural “faith” necessarily, I was just asking for some expansion on that thought, (which you did give, despite the clumsy phrasing of my question. I am also a big admirer of Thich Nhat Hanh. If you aren’t already familiar with Alan Watts, I highly recommend him too. I think you’d like him quite a bit, judging by some of the other writers you’ve mentioned. Look for a book called _The Book_ for a start. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/103 "2003-03-05T21:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > **emarkp** said: > Polycarp while that may be revealed, it’s certainly not objective. How do you determine objectively if someone does in fact love God and man as Jesus indicated? I think the commandments themselves are objective. **Poly’s** claim was that these two commandments may be counted upon as the objective word of God. The judgement of whether any individual has fulfilled those commandments is a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/104 "2003-03-05T21:23:06Z")
Thanks **Diogenes** , and I’m sorry if I sounded irritated. I am most certainly not - with you anyway! 🙂 I’ll be sure to check out Alan Watts, thanks for the recommendation. I learned of TNT from **Homebrew**. Dopers are good resources, ya know! If I may, I’d like to comment on **GOM** ’s posts, specifically where he suggests that Spong does not believe in God, or is “not a Christian”. This is absolutely without a doubt, one of the most infuriating things that Christians do - typically fundamentalist Christians - but not limited to them. It’s this tendency to just assume that they know what everyone else’s True Motives are, or their True Beliefs, or What They Are Really Thinking. It’s arrogant and presumptuous, and demonstrates a complete lack of humility or understanding. Please note, **GOM** I’m not picking on you _per se_ - you just happen to be the nearest example I could find. Other examples on this board and others are legion. Did you all know that Spong has received - and continues to receive - **death threats**? Let me give you a hint - it’s not the atheists, agnostics, or liberal Christians who are making them. It’s fundamentalist Christians - you know, the supposed Bearers Of The Real Truth, the ones who Really Have God “living inside them”. And Who’s not a Christian? Sorry for the beginnings of a rant, but it does upset me a great deal. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/105 "2003-03-05T21:38:39Z")
Before we do the traditional Great Debates “pile-on-the-Fundy.” one-size-fits-all flamefest, let me note that I’ve known **GOM** for a couple of years now, and he’s a very kindly man who is outspoken on what he himself believes but is not in the slightest interested in saying something to hurt someone else and will apologize profusely if he inadvertently does so. So please do call him on any errors of fact or assumption in what he posts, but don’t attribute motives to him beyond what he explicitly says, if you all will be so kind. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/106 "2003-03-05T21:54:53Z")
Yes, I do not mean to start a Frog roast - either here, in a junk yard or anywhere else for that matter! 😉 [/inside joke] I meant to comment on that one particular characteristic, and in retrospect, perhaps should have done so in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/107 "2003-03-05T23:56:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I am a part of who God is, or as Meister Eckhart observed in the 14th century, “my me is God.” No, that is not a statement of arrogant, modern megalomania. It is rather the discovery of the doorway into a Christianity that will emerge in the coming reformation in which a new God-consciousness, beyond the theistic limits of yesterday, will be born. I await the Reformation! I hope I have contributed to its arrival. \ Thou art God. \ ::_D&R_:: ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/108 "2003-03-05T23:59:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Forgive me for quoting Scripture in response to your request for an “objective” referent, but I think you’ll agree that it’s a valid, objectively verifiable answer: > > > [@](#): > > > > By their fruits shall you know them. Firstly, you don’t need my permission to quote scripture, especially in a theological discussion :). But no, I don’t agree. What fruits qualify one as a false prophet or not? Once again, the question remains: what does Spong mean when he says, “there is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.” In what sense is a standard defined as objective? This is a recurring problem with Spong–he seems more interested in making statements than in making _sense_. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/109 "2003-03-06T00:23:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*\ > Thou art God. > \ > > ::_D&R_:: \*\* Why are you running? Come back! We wish to cherish you! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/110 "2003-03-06T00:56:24Z")
> [@](#): > > **emarkp** said: > what does Spong mean when he says, “there is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.” In what sense is a standard defined as objective? This is a recurring problem with Spong–he seems more interested in making statements than in making sense. I think by “objective” that Spong means not subject to interpretation, clear, unambiguous, obvious in its meaning. By standard, I think he means applicable to all people. In other words, Spong is saying that there is no “last word,” so to speak in any written human system of legal or moral behavior. As human understanding of God evolves, then so will revealed script. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/111 "2003-03-06T02:43:30Z")
**RT** – Have you read the letter from Heinlein to (IIRC) his agent Lurton Blasingame in which he says what he tried to do in _Stranger_? Might put a quite different perspective on your comment! (If not, and if you don’t have access to _Grumbles from the Grave_, I’ll be happy to quote the pertinent parts on request.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/112 "2003-03-06T18:11:58Z")
**Poly** , please do quote the relevant portions. Not only do I not own that book; I’d never heard of it. **robert** : whassamatter? Surely you can cherish me while I’m running! I’m poetry in motion, I tell ya. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/113 "2003-03-06T18:39:46Z")
_Grumbles from the Grave_ is a collection of Heinlein’s letters, mostly to John W. Campbell, Jr. (in the early parts) and Lurton Blasingame, his agent (in the later parts), edited and brought out by his wife Virginia after his death. Published by DelRey in 1990, and IIRC available in trade paper as well. Key passages, from a January 20, 1972 letter to “a reader” (unnamed) (pp. 243-45): > [@](#): > > Now, for some background on _Stranger_ and my stories in general: I write for the following reasons – > [ol][li]To support myself and my family;[/li][li]To entertain my readers;[/li][li]And, if possible, to cause my readers to _think_.[/ol][/li] > {snip} > > By the time I wrote _Stranger_ had enough skill in how to entratian a reader and a solid enough commercial market to risk taking a flyer, a fantasy speculation a bit farther out than I had usually done in the past. > > {snip} > > I thought that the parables in it would take hold, too, at least for some readers… > > Well, what was I trying to _say_ in it? > > I was asking questions. > > I was _not_ giving answers. I was trying to shake the reader loose from some preconceptions and induce him to think for himself, along new and fresh lines. In consequence, each reader gets something different out of the book _because he himself supplies the answers._ > > If I managed to shake him loos from some prejudice, preconception, or unexamined assumption, that was all I intended to do. A rational human being does not need answers, spoon-fed to him on “faith”; he nees questions to worry about – serious ones. The quality of thge answers then depends on _him_ … and he may revise those answers several times in the course of a long life, (hopefully) getting a little closer to the truth each time. But I would never undertake to be a “Prophet,” handing out neatly packaged answers to lazy minds. > > (For some of the more important unanswered questions in _Stranger_ see chapter 33, especially page 344 of the hardcover, the paragraph starting: “All names belong in the hat, Ben.” From an October 21, 1960 letter to Blasingame (PP. 228-29): > [@](#): > > So … using the freedom of the mythical man from Mars … I have undertaken to criticize and examine disrespectfully the two untouchables: monotheism and monogamy. > > My book says: a personal God is unprovable, most unlikely, and _all_ contemporary theology is superstitious twaddle insulting to a mature mind. But atheism and “scientific humanism” are the same sort of piffle in mirror image, and just as repugnant. Agnosticism is intellectually more acceptable but only in that it pleads ignorance, utter intellectual bankruptcy, and gives up. All the other religions, elsewhere and in the past, whether monotheistic, polytheistic, or other, are just as silly, and the very notion of “worship” is intellectually on all fours with a jungle savage’s appeasing of Mumbo Jumbo. > > {snip} > > But I don’t offer a solution because there isn’t any, not to an intellectually honest man. That pantheistic, mystical “Thou art God!” chorus that runs through the book is not offered as a creed but as an existentialist assumption of personal responsibility, devoid of all godding. It says, "Don’t appeal for mercy to God the Father up in the sky, little man, because he’s not at home and never was at home, and couldn’t care less. What you do with yourself, whether you are happy or unhappy – live or die – is strictly your business and the universe doesn’t care. In fact you may _be_ the universe and the source of all your troubles. But at best, the most you can hope for is comradeship with comrades no more divine (or just as divine) as you are. So quit sniveling and face up to it – “Thou art God!” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/114 "2003-03-06T18:48:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* let me note that I’ve known **GOM** for a couple of years now, and he’s a very kindly man who is outspoken on what he himself believes but is not in the slightest interested in saying something to hurt someone else and will apologize profusely if he inadvertently does so. \*\* And I must say that I’ve also known GOM for some time now (over at the PP) and my opinion of him is quite the opposite. I would be willing to admit that your statement would be accurate if you had qualified it by saying that that’s how he acts towards his fellow Christians. Perhaps you don’t see what he does unless he’s doing it to you? As for how he behaves towards the rest of us, GOM was exremely rude to me at the PP, to the point that his behavior was slipping over into ongoing harassment. He was even temporarily _banned_ from one of the forums there because of his bad behavior. I’m sorry, but given GOM’s rude and arrogant behavior towards me in the past, I can’t imagine him as being “kindly.” We’re talking about someone who tried to win an argument by telling me that by arguing with him, I was arguing with God. We’re talking about someone whose favorite strategy at the PP was to respond to evidence against his views by simply declaring that the evidence hadn’t actually been presented, and then making insulting comments about how people had “failed” to present any evidence and how they would be better off believing in the tooth fairy. If you want GOM to have a fresh start here, fine- let people make up their own minds based on how he behaves here. But if you’re going to vouch for his integrity, I think I should point out that you’re his friend, and as such you view him very differently than do the people he’s rude to. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/115 "2003-03-07T17:46:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\* > > 1. If I may, I’d like to comment on **GOM** ’s posts, specifically where he suggests that Spong does not believe in God, or is “not a Christian”. This is absolutely without a doubt, one of the most infuriating things that Christians do - typically fundamentalist Christians - but not limited to them. It’s this tendency to just assume that they know what everyone else’s True Motives are, or their True Beliefs, or What They Are Really Thinking. It’s arrogant and presumptuous, and demonstrates a complete lack of humility or understanding. Please note, **GOM** I’m not picking on you _per se_ - you just happen to be the nearest example I could find. Other examples on this board and others are legion. > > 2. Did you all know that Spong has received - and continues to receive - **death threats**? Let me give you a hint - it’s not the atheists, agnostics, or liberal Christians who are making them. It’s fundamentalist Christians - you know, the supposed Bearers Of The Real Truth, the ones who Really Have God “living inside them”. And Who’s not a Christian? Sorry for the beginnings of a rant, but it does upset me a great deal. \*\* 1. I don’t know how it could be more clear. Spong says God is dead. That places him outside of Christianity. This should not be any big surprise to people who read the Bible. In Matthew’s gospel Jesus says: 21 \*\* Not every one\*\* that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 \*\* Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? \*\* 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually a Christian. I’m sorry that is upsetting to anyone, but it’s the truth. 2. Since this is supposed to be the board dedicated to finding out the truth, would it be too much to ask for a little **proof** to back up that rant? I have never threatened Spong and no true Christian I know personally would ever threaten Spong. You seem to be throwing a lot of mud into the discussion. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/116 "2003-03-07T18:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > **Since this is supposed to be the board dedicated to finding out the truth, would it be too much to ask for a little proof to back up that rant? I have never threatened Spong and no true Christian I know personally would ever threaten Spong.** > [@](#): > > I think what you have to recognize is I’ve never gotten a death threat from an atheist or a Buddhist, only bible-quoting, true believers. > Most people don’t know that there’s this dark and hostile side of religion. I think they saw it on Sept. 11. > > –Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong > Chicago Sun-Times, Nov. 23, 2001 And no true Scotsman would ever put suagr on his porridge, eh **GOM**? ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/117 "2003-03-07T18:28:36Z")
“suagr” is of course an obscure Gaelic spelling of **sugar**! I am reminded of another point - and herein lies the disconnect, I believe. When the average “Joe on the street” talks of someone as “being a Christian”, they mean that the person in question self identifies as such. But, when fundamentalist Christians (FC’s) talk of someone as “being a Christian”, they mean that the person in question has the proper beliefs and lives their life in such a way that their God sees fit to send his “Holy Spirit” to actually inhabit this person’s body. FC’s will sit around and talk about whether or not so-and-so is _actually_ a Christian ( I know, I used to be one, and do that). I remember hearing of a major sin committed by a very public Christian figure, and discussing amongst my other Christian friends how it could have happened, when someone said - “Well, maybe he really isn’t a Christian”. We all nodded very seriously and hoped that wasn’t the case. And I can assure you, my experience is not isolated. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/118 "2003-03-07T19:08:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*And no true Scotsman would ever put suagr on his porridge, eh **GOM**? \*\* Am I supposed to be the Scotsman, or you? I can’t make heads or tails of this… 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/119 "2003-03-07T19:15:42Z")
Just brilliant. ☹ So now Spong equates Christianity with terrorists? Thanks for the quote. It opened my eyes a little more… Seems like 911 was a real big deal for Spong. He sure got a lot of press out of it anyway. Too bad he wasn’t paying attention to the past, oh, say roughly 2000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/120 "2003-03-07T19:21:19Z")
It’s pretty simple, **GOM** – Spong’s belief in God is there; he means what he says – and his opinion is that what he calls “the theist God” – more or less, the angry old man with flashing blue eyes and a long beard sitting on a cloud, as in the typical cartoon imagery – is gone, and we need to replace him with a more “modern” concept of who God really is. You and I can disagree with this stance, and I’ll grant that he gets pretty obnoxious in the way he sets up strawmen labeled “fundamentalist Christian” to shoot down – but it’s not proper to label him as “not really a Christian.” As for the other, there are a lot of people who deem themselves to be Christian who react violently to the sort of stances he takes. Whether or not you or I consider them to be Christians or to be acting in a Christian manner is immaterial; they believe themselves to be Christians acting against a threat to the faith. **Mars** quoted Spong about some of them; I’ll be glad to provide more evidences from his autobiography, both of threats against him and of people, allegedly good Christians, out-and-out lying in order to discredit him. Moral: When one slings mud, much of it splashes back on you. And that’s true for both sides in this sort of warfare. And not limited to religion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016.md?page=7)