# Bishop John Shelby Spong: heretic or visionary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016 "2003-02-28T00:00:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/121 "2003-03-07T19:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*Am I supposed to be the Scotsman, or you? I can’t make heads or tails of this… > > 😕 \*\* Sorry **GOm** - sometimes I forget that everyone else isn’t familiar with the things I am familiar with 🙂 Here’s a site with a cite: [http://www.mac-2001.com/philo/scottsman.htm](http://www.mac-2001.com/philo/scottsman.htm) > [@](#): > > This is actually a combination of several fallacies, > but since it rests ultimately on shifting the > meaning of terms - a form of equivocation - > and begging the question, it receives special attention. > > The name comes from an odd example involving Scotsmen: > > 1. Suppose I assert that no Scotsman puts sugar on > his porridge. You counter this by pointing out > that your friend Angus likes sugar with his porridge. > I then say "Ah, yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar > on his porridge. > > Obviously the original assertion about Scotsmen has > been challenged quite well, but in attempting to > shore it up the speaker uses an _ad hoc_ change > combined with a shifted meaning of the words from > the original. The point being that FC’s claim that Christians believe certain things. Then when confronted with a Christian who believes differently, the response is, well, no TRUE Christian would believe that. Make sense now? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/122 "2003-03-07T19:28:51Z")
Btw, do we have any actual **proof** of Spong’s allegations? Who is the person who supposedly threatened Spong? hmmm He uses the word believers, plural, which implies more than one person allegedly threatened his life. When did these events happen? What was done about it? Police reports should be available to back up his claim. Or could this be merely more attention-grabbing hype? Now I’m real curious about this guy… ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/123 "2003-03-07T19:32:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\* > Make sense now? \*\* Yes. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/124 "2003-03-08T02:50:16Z")
I am more than a little frustrated with the lack of direction and substantive discernment evidenced in this thread thus far. I have repeatedly sought answers defining the root basis for Bishop Spong’s declarations as posted in the OP. I have heard _nothing_ to support his astonishingly abrupt dismissal of the essence of Christian faith. What I have heard is a rather pie-in-the-sky fancy that God is _whom_ever and _what_ever any and every person makes Him out to be. Sheer arrogance. His sweeping rejection of the elements of our faith is to be replaced by some happy-pappy oh-so-reminiscent-of-the-60’s updated version of “If this rendering of god makes you feel good, then he’ll do!”, or perhaps a shorter phrase would be “Christianity? Don’t like it? Reverse it!” I’ve asked it before and I’ll ask it again: Does God define Himself , or do we define God? Perhaps Paul’s words of so long ago will make some sense: “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - **which is really no gospel at all**. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!.. **I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I am preaching is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ**.” Romans 1:6-8,11-12 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/125 "2003-03-08T04:13:43Z")
> [@](#): > > **NaSultainne** said: > I’ve asked it before and I’ll ask it again: Does God define Himself , or do we define God? We define God. God has never spoken that we know of. > [@](#): > > Perhaps Paul’s words of so long ago will make some sense: > > “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!..I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I am preaching is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” > Romans 1:6-8,11-12 Sez Paul, not God. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/126 "2003-03-08T05:09:53Z")
Draw a distinction between “the Gospel” and what people have embroidered on it. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a way to interpret how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. The doctrines about Scriptural infallibility are manmade. And I am flat out disgusted with the idea that good thinking people are “buying into namby pamby feelgood thinking” – that’s a classic accusation by those who feel their own faith threatened by people disagreeing with them. (I’m not saying that’s **Na Sultainne** ’s reason – but it’s a common one.) Make explicit criticisms of Spong, and I’ll be glad to debate them with you (and I might even agree with you). Start a new thread on “the basics of the Christian faith” and I’ll be with you in a New York minute. I thought the discussion was going somewhat substantive – if you see otherwise, please be explicit (or if you have been and have not been answered, link back to the proper post, and I at least will try to respond to what you ahd to say). ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/127 "2003-03-08T15:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > > The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a way to interpret how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. \*\* hmmm Why did you bring that up? Does Spong not accept the Trinity? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/128 "2003-03-08T15:19:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > > And I am flat out disgusted with the idea that good thinking people are “buying into namby pamby feelgood thinking” – that’s a classic accusation by those who feel their own faith threatened by people disagreeing with them. \*\* Speaking for myself only, it’s very saddening to see so much garbage being peddled as “Christianity” these days. Christianity does NOT make people feel good. Not at first. It makes us realize how awful sin is, how bad we are in when compared to the pure holiness of God, and what our eternal destination will be unless we accept God’s freely provided pardon for our sins. As a famous song says: Amazing grace! How sweet the sound That saved a **wretch** like me! I once was lost, but now am found; Was blind, but now I see. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/129 "2003-03-08T15:26:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*1. I’ll grant that he gets pretty obnoxious in the way he sets up strawmen labeled “fundamentalist Christian” to shoot down – > > 1. I’ll be glad to provide more evidences from his autobiography, both of threats against him and of people, allegedly good Christians, out-and-out lying in order to discredit him. > > \*\* 1. It’s obnoxious and ludicrous. The more I read of Spong the more I find him to be a publicity hound. 2. I’m to the point where I strongly doubt anything that Spong claims. I will look in some of our libraries to see if they might have his book, but I want to see some police reports to verify his accusations of death threats. He has close to zero credibility with me. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/130 "2003-03-08T18:22:44Z")
Could the fundamentalists here name someone whom they _do_ consider to be a legitimate, non-heretical religious visionary? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/131 "2003-03-08T18:44:43Z")
> [@](#): > > **GOM** said: > Christianity does NOT make people feel good. Not at first. It makes us realize how awful sin is, how bad we are in when compared to the pure holiness of God, and what our eternal destination will be unless we accept God’s freely provided pardon for our sins. Maybe this is how it makes _you_ feel, and that’s unfortunate for you, but that does not mean that your own personal self-loathing has to be the template for all other Christians. If that’s the most you can get from your faith then maybe you ought to try something else. Your insistence on police reports is childish and unproductive. My own googling around on the matter show that Spong has received at least sixteen death threats, all of them from fundies. Presumably, Spong turns over all such letters to the police, and reports are filed but they are not linkable on the internet. If you want to call him a liar, that’s your prerogative but I think you should offer some kind of evidence that Spong is, or ever has been, a dishonest person. That fact that he disagrees with you philosophically does not in any way make him a liar. Accusing him of lying about death threats is not only an _arumentum ad hominem_, it’s not even a **supported** _ad hominem._ ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/132 "2003-03-08T19:33:13Z")
Plus, let’s remember that death threats and violence are part of the stock-in-trade of Christian neanderthals in America. We went over this before with FriendofGod. Generally if someone in a school district opposes school prayer, they get called an atheist and a Satanist and have to deal with threats to their safety. One Jewish student in such a school was told things like, “Hitler missed one.” I’m not even sure he was involved in the school prayer case- he was in the district, and since he wasn’t Christian, the “you’re for me or against me” attitude turned against him. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/133 "2003-03-08T21:49:40Z")
All I will say about this is that I don’t want the fox guarding the chickens. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/134 "2003-03-08T23:03:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > Christianity does NOT make people feel good. Not at first. It makes us realize how awful sin is, how bad we are in when compared to the pure holiness of God, and what our eternal destination will be unless we accept God’s freely provided pardon for our sins. Conversion experiences do differ, **GOM**. When I first encountered the Lord, the moment wasn’t about hellfire or my sins - neither of which I thought about at all that night - or even about me at all really. It was about God. Neither your first experience with the Lord, nor mine, are universal. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/135 "2003-03-09T00:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > It’s pretty simple, **GOM** – Spong’s belief in God is there; he means what he says – and his opinion is that what he calls “the theist God” – more or less, the angry old man with flashing blue eyes and a long beard sitting on a cloud, as in the typical cartoon imagery – is gone, and we need to replace him with a more “modern” concept of who God really is. Well, that’s the problem right there, **Poly** - his complaint in this regard isn’t with the Church (be that the Episcopal Church, or with Christianity in general) but with an image embedded in the popular culture, in _Far Side_ and _Frank and Ernest_ cartoons. It’s got a certain amount of cultural inertia behind it (even the ridicule of the image seems to help perpetuate it), the way there’s a good bit of cultural inertia behind associating split-personality with the term ‘schizophrenia’. But Spong can’t really do anything about that, nor can anyone else. People will probably crack jokes based on that conception of God in the year 2525. Not that I perceive it as much of a problem. Hardly anyone believes in that image of God, and even those who don’t believe in God at all, don’t think that’s what we theists mean by ‘God’, even if they aren’t sure what we mean instead. So I think he’s _entirely_ setting up a strawman in the whole theism business. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/136 "2003-03-09T01:10:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > I’ve asked it before and I’ll ask it again: Does God define Himself , or do we define God? Yes. No question about it. My apologies for being flip, but any attempt to say _anything_ about God, including a statement about God’s existence, is an inadvertent attempt to define God. So yes, we define Him, or try to at least. But as a Christian, I believe that there is a God that interacts with mankind, and reveals as much of himself to us as we are able and willing to handle. I would have to say, though, that in the Bible, we encounter both simultaneously. We read the tales of God’s revelations to mankind, but those revelations come to us through the limitations of human words - and ‘define’ and ‘limit’ are just about the same thing. I don’t know if that helps anyone’s position here, including yours or mine. I do know that Spong in WCMCOD makes a big deal about how much a part of the problem it is that the existing images of God are in words. But I’ll be damned if I know what he’s going to replace them with - flashing lights and musical tones, maybe? He doesn’t say, but I’m sure he’ll heroically defy existing religious conventions, and bravely strike out into the unknown, to find his new God-content. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/137 "2003-03-09T05:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*If you want to call him a liar, that’s your prerogative but I think you should offer some kind of evidence that Spong is, or ever has been, a dishonest person. That fact that he disagrees with you philosophically does not in any way make him a liar. Accusing him of lying about death threats is not only an _arumentum ad hominem_, it’s not even a **supported** _ad hominem._ \*\* hmmm Are we both reading the same words? What a fascinating twist… A Christian asks for proof of some extremely serious allegations, but apparently is being told that Spong’s word alone is enough proof. Funny how that’s not convincing on any other debate thread… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/138 "2003-03-09T05:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*Conversion experiences do differ, **GOM**. When I first encountered the Lord, the moment wasn’t about hellfire or my sins - neither of which I thought about at all that night - or even about me at all really. It was about God. > > Neither your first experience with the Lord, nor mine, are universal. \*\* Hi Poly, Do you happen to have a link about this back to the Parlor? I would like to read it, if you’ve ever posted it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/139 "2003-03-09T05:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gom** said: > A Christian asks for proof of some extremely serious allegations, but apparently is being told that Spong’s word alone is enough proof. Funny how that’s not convincing on any other debate thread… What kind of “proof” would be acceptable to you GOM? The police reports are not linkable. Do you find it somehow _unbelievable_ that religious fanatics would make death threats. Do you think that Spong would make such easily falsifiable statements if they weren’t true? In a case like this I just use common sense. What is more likely, that such a higghly controversial figure as Bishop Spong would receive a few death threats, or that he would completely fabricate that assertion out of thin air? If he were lying, it would be realtively easy to uncover and his critics would love nothing more than to expose something like that. I can also consider the man’s credibility as a whole. There is simply no evidence that Spong has ever been dishonest about anything else, so I have no reason to disbelieve him now. You are fallaciously assuming that because he is not your kind of Christian that he can’t possibly be an honorable human being. That is utterly bankrupt reasoning ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016/140 "2003-03-09T12:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Could the fundamentalists here name someone whom they _do_ consider to be a legitimate, non-heretical religious visionary? \*\* I’m not a fundamentalist, but I am a conservative member of the Church of England (High Church tradition, of course). I think C.S. Lewis and Thomas Merton were legitimate, non-heretical religious visionaries. Regrettably, no one with their particular fire is writing today. UnuMondo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bishop-john-shelby-spong-heretic-or-visionary/158016.md?page=8)