# BitCoin ATM...What the?? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 1, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523 "2017-04-01T19:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/21 "2017-04-02T05:44:45Z")
> [@Last\_Glacial\_Maximum](#): > > My BP is for sure on the west side of Cicero at or near 47th… > > Now back to the thread. > > . Ah, that’s the one on 45th and Cicero. Anyhow, feel free to check out the one on 47th and Central if you want to see this Bitcoin ATM. I haven’t looked closely at it, just saw a sign for it on the door about a year back when they installed it and the slot machines. Or maybe the sign was just that the slots accepted Bitcoin, but I’m pretty sure there was some sort of ATM connected to it. I’ll check in when I fill up in the next day or two. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/22 "2017-04-02T06:54:42Z")
Bitcoin is still a thing? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/23 "2017-04-02T18:47:42Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, that’s the one on 45th and Cicero. Anyhow, feel free to check out the one on 47th and Central if you want to see this Bitcoin ATM. I haven’t looked closely at it, just saw a sign for it on the door about a year back when they installed it and the slot machines. Or maybe the sign was just that the slots accepted Bitcoin, but I’m pretty sure there was some sort of ATM connected to it. I’ll check in when I fill up in the next day or two. Yeah, it’s a Red Leaf Bitcon ATM. Fancy with a full color touchscreen display and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/24 "2017-04-02T18:51:47Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > This is an ignorant view of bitcoin. It’s like saying a website that uses Https must be for illegal activity because they are encrypting their pages, or that someone using a VPN to maintain online privacy must have criminal intent. > > There are currently over 36,000 bitcoin ATM or cash to bitcoin exchange services in 56 countries. > > A very small and incomplete list of legitimate companies who accept bitcoin for payment includes Microsoft, Dell, [Overstock.com](http://Overstock.com), [Newegg.com](http://Newegg.com), Tiger Direct, [CheapAir.com](http://CheapAir.com), Theatre Tickets Direct, Honest Brew, Reeds Jewelers, The Sacramento Kings (NBA franchise that accepts bitcoin for tickets, jerseys, hot dogs, beer, etc.) > > There are literally thousands of legitimate businesses that accept bitcoin both online and in brick and mortar stores. > > You can order pizza, pay doctor’s bills, put a deposit on a vacation condo, and any number of other things including paying your US taxes using bitcoin (via a third party service but nevertheless…) With bitcoin there are no transaction fees, and no minimums. It’s possible to send someone 20 cents. Try doing that with paypal or with a bank wire. > > So to get them you either have to go to an online broker and give them your banking info or credit card number, or just pay cash at an exchange service or ATM and get them anonymously. I prefer anything I do to be anonymous when possible and it isn’t because I plan to do anything illegal. Not one word of this actually contradicts anything I said. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/25 "2017-04-02T18:58:18Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > So, you put cash in? What comes out? A receipt that I have bitcoin somewhere? Where? You just described checking accounts. That is the way all modern currency works. Bitcoins are just as real as any other currency because some people accept them as payment. Where they are stored is more complicated. They are electronic and the algorithm used to generate and maintain them is very complicated (nobody even knows for sure who invented them). You can keep them on a flash drive or a hard drive but, if the device fails, they are gone just like the dollars under your mattress if your house burns down. A somewhat safer way to store them is through a 3rd party in the Cloud but there have been several major heists of those as well. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/26 "2017-04-02T19:16:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Not one word of this actually contradicts anything I said. I’m not sure how your statement doesn’t imply that there is no legitimate reason to buy bitcoins in a nondescript convenience store in the Midwest. I’m not sure of that because there is no other possible way to interpret what you said. Just at a glance on [coinmap.org](http://coinmap.org) I find the following businesses in the St. Louis/University City area that accept bitcoin: The Rampant Website Design and Development Strange Donuts Sister Cities Cajun and BBQ Articulate Ventures Comfort Architecture Love Lawn Service Pomranka Media Group Hydraulic Pictures Riley’s Florist Beanstalk Web Solutions Steve Franklin Counselling Cafe di Organo LOGOS Identity Jim Balogh Photography That is most assuredly not a complete list of every legitimate business within a few miles of the ATM the OP saw that accepts bitcoins for goods and services. In this thread you have, in each post, stated that bitcoins are for illegal purposes, that big legitimate businesses wouldn’t want to associate themselves with a currency used for illegal purposes and that there is no legitimate reason for this machine to be the University City area. That is an ignorant view of bitcoin and clearly contradicted by the evidence. Cash is the most often used currency for illegal endeavors and I doubt you will find too many legitimate businesses who don’t want to associate themselves with it. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/27 "2017-04-02T20:35:46Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > That is most assuredly not a complete list of every legitimate business within a few miles of the ATM the OP saw that accepts bitcoins for goods and services. In this thread you have, in each post, stated that bitcoins are for illegal purposes, that big legitimate businesses wouldn’t want to associate themselves with a currency used for illegal purposes and that there is no legitimate reason for this machine to be the University City area. So, um. Assume you do a gig for someone and the purchaser pays you in bitcoins. And then you go to one of these services and spend some bitcoins and get service. Ahem. I am _sure_ everyone involved in such an untraceable scheme files their income taxes voluntarily and correctly, right? Even though, to the IRS, they would literally receive not a single scrap of paper indicating that money had even changed hands - they are only going to know what you tell them… So yeah. That’s the reason. I would reasonably expect that the customers of these legitimate businesses are involved in tax fraud _at the very least_. Otherwise, why not keep their money in the bank? It’s FDIC insured, and you may get a little interest, and the value of your money decreases a predictable 2-3% per year, instead of wildly swinging up and down 100% like bitcoins do. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/28 "2017-04-02T20:42:19Z")
Same reasons it would be stupid to assume any business that accepts cash is cheating on their taxes. And how do you know that once a business accepts bitcoin for goods or services they don’t immediately convert it to dollars and put it in the bank? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/29 "2017-04-02T21:01:54Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Same reasons it would be stupid to assume any business that accepts cash is cheating on their taxes. And how do you know that once a business accepts bitcoin for goods or services they don’t immediately convert it to dollars and put it in the bank? The difference is, with cash it is much easier to steal it if you don’t put it in the bank, and when you go to the bank, the bank reports the transaction to the IRS if it’s over 10k. Also, the IRS can ask the bank when investigating suspected tax fraud for a complete record of all transactions. Bitcoins mask all this, and are an ideal tool for financial fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/30 "2017-04-02T21:08:17Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > The difference is, with cash it is much easier to steal it if you don’t put it in the bank… So on that front you’re right; bitcoin is superior to cash. > [@SamuelA](#): > > …and when you go to the bank, the bank reports the transaction to the IRS if it’s over 10k. Also, the IRS can ask the bank when investigating suspected tax fraud for a complete record of all transactions… If the business is converting their bitcoin to cash and putting in the bank then there is no distinction, every single thing you just said applies to either case - what you’re saying is completely nonsensical. Bitcoin are a global currency so US tax considerations are not the foremost on anyone’s mind anyway. But any business can cheat on their taxes no matter what form of currency they accept. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/31 "2017-04-02T21:57:54Z")
Crazyhorse, what you are seeing is not going to be around for long. Sooner or later Congress will pass new laws (if needed) and the FBI will shut it all down. See : > **[e-gold](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold#Criminal_prosecution)** > > e-gold was a digital gold currency operated by Gold & Silver Reserve Inc. (G&SR) that allowed users to open an account on their web site denominated in grams of gold, or other precious metals, and that let users make instant transfers of value ("spends") to other e-gold accounts. The e-gold system was launched in 1996 and had grown to five million accounts by 2009, when transfers were suspended due to legal issues. At its peak in 2006, e-gold was processing more than US$2 billion worth of transac... > **[Liberty Reserve | Criminal investigation and charges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve#Criminal_investigation_and_charges)** > > Costa Rican authorities became aware of Liberty Reserve in 2009 and informed the business it needed a license to operate as a money transmitting business. In 2011, Liberty Reserve was denied a business license in Costa Rica, according to state prosecutor José Pablo González, due to lack of transparency about how the business was funded. The business formally disbanded at that time, but company founder Arthur Budovsky continued to operate the business by funneling it through five other Costa Ri In... And several other previous crime currencies. Of course, bitcoin itself will still exist (until the Chinese miner pool starts scamming) , but it’s not going to be this easy. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/32 "2017-04-02T22:03:53Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Crazyhorse, what you are seeing is not going to be around for long. Sooner or later Congress will pass new laws (if needed) and the FBI will shut it all down. See : > > [e-gold - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold#Criminal_prosecution) > > [Liberty Reserve - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve#Criminal_investigation_and_charges) > > And several other previous crime currencies. Of course, bitcoin itself will still exist (until the Chinese miner pool starts scamming) , but it’s not going to be this easy. What has that got to do with the subject of this thread? But should that come to pass so be it. As I said it’s a global currency. How the US government may hypothetically choose to deal with it isn’t really very important and certainly isn’t any support for your ignorant statements that it’s only use is for illegal purchases or tax evasion. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/33 "2017-04-02T22:16:48Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > certainly isn’t any support for your ignorant statements that it’s only use is for illegal purchases or tax evasion. Yes, yes, roofies in an easily dissolvable, tasteless form have legitimate uses as well. Nobody is going to use a transaction mechanism that : a. Charges significant transaction fees for going from cash to bitcoins, then the bitcoin transaction b. Your bitcoins, during the hour or day you hold them, may go up or down 10% or more in a single day. Meaning you have to go buy more or buy extra for the purchase. c. Take half a day to clear d. You can be hacked and the coins stolen without recourse, invisibly, due to malware you didn’t even know your computer had. e. If someone scams you, there is no chargebacks and no recourse. When they can just withdraw cash with no fees and spend it, or use their credit card with no fees at the consumer level (the store pays the fees) and purchase protection, or use a bank transfer with many levels of protection and traceability. They aren’t going to put up with a-e unless they are up to no good. Just like they aren’t going to buy ideal roofies for their insomnia. You may find that rare person that can’t swallow a sleeping pill and _must_ have something much stronger, and you can maybe find 1 weirdo who is obeying all the laws and paying all the bitcoin fees just to prove a point, but for the overwhelming majority of cases… ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523/34 "2017-04-02T22:29:19Z")
And yet they are widely accepted by businesses in every market sector and show no sign of slowing down. Consumers have found them useful because they allow payment from anyone to anyone with no transaction fees or limits, and businesses find them useful because accepting them attracts customers. It sounds pretty much like a legitimate currency to me and one that isn’t likely going anywhere anytime soon. Contrary to your views the US government and state legislatures are very well aware of bitcoin and some bills have even been introduced to accept bitcoin for payment of taxes and fees to governments. It is no different than if someone, for example, mows someone’s lawn for $20. If they are paid $20 cash, a check, or $20 worth of carrots as payment for their services those are all taxable income. It’s up to the provider to report income honestly on their taxes whatever form it takes. Cash is even more useful than bitcoin for illegal transactions and it still has its legitimate uses. The value of the dollar fluctuates vs. other currencies. People could accept payment in gold, silver, or stock shares, which all fluctuate. There is no downside to bitcoin you have mentioned that doesn’t apply to every form of currency. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoin-atm-what-the/783523.md?page=1)