# Bitcoins... Still not realistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 24, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987 "2016-04-24T11:48:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/21 "2016-04-25T16:25:29Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I started in tulips, moved into the South Sea, tried Florida real estate and am now firmly invested in perpetual motion. What could go wrong? :eek: Have you considered investing in Solar Freaking Roadways? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/22 "2016-04-27T02:46:19Z")
Thank you, everyone ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/23 "2016-04-28T23:06:55Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > At least my Altarian Dollars, Triganic Ningis, Pu’s and Flanian Pobble Beads are still holding value > > I guess I invested in the right fictional currency… How are your quatloos holding up? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/24 "2016-04-29T02:19:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I put all my wealth in quatloos. Hasn’t failed me (yet). > [@MacTech](#): > > At least my Altarian Dollars, Triganic Ningis, Pu’s and Flanian Pobble Beads are still holding value Either of you guys want to invest in Zorkmids??? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/25 "2016-04-29T03:12:55Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Either of you guys want to invest in Zorkmids??? Only if I’m headed to the GUE…I haven’t been there since…since…since I got eaten by that grue. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/26 "2016-04-29T05:03:03Z")
The only thing I use coins for is the bus and the laundry. I don’t use bills at all, I carry a couple hundred in cash in case of emergency, but I probably have the same bills in my pocket that were there a year ago. Everything is on a credit card. Yes, I know, bitcoins are not coins, as such. But I doubt if you could spend a bitcoin in my town, except maybe at a gunshop. I don’t buy many things at gunshops. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/27 "2016-04-29T10:23:49Z")
If I did own any bitcoins I don’t know where I’d spend them. A few times in the past I considered investing in some but that no longer seems wise. Regarding cash; I need coins to park at the train station if I take SEPTA into Philly, and there are situations where only bills will suffice. The guy who mows my lawn, for example, can’t take a card, and a check would be a hassle. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/28 "2016-04-29T22:32:53Z")
I think the challenges facing BitCoins are threefold - first, at this point, I think they’re irrevocably associated with extremely illegal goods/activities; the average person obviously isn’t going to want to be associated with that kind of thing (especially because if other average people find out their friend has BitCoins, they’re going to wonder _why?_ suspiciously). Secondly, they’re just too complicated for pretty much everyone who’s not seriously into computers (they’re too complicated for me and I’m into computers, FWIW) to deal with, especially when you’ve got easily understood traditional currency and more recent innovations such as debit cards, PayPal and the like. Thirdly - pretty much nowhere the average person shops will accept them\*. Can you buy a coffee with BitCoins in most cafes? Nope. Can you buy your groceries with them? Again, nope. Need to get your car serviced? Your mechanic isn’t likely to accept payment in BitCoins. So yeah, I can see how they’re an interesting idea and all that, but I don’t think they’re going to get close to becoming mainstream any time in the forseeable future. \*I’m aware there’s exceptions to all of these generalisations; please don’t worry about pointing them out unless the exception is _really_ interesting or unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/29 "2016-04-29T23:41:29Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I put all my wealth in quatloos. Hasn’t failed me (yet). Don’t spend them all on one newcomer. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/30 "2016-04-30T16:01:28Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Thirdly - pretty much nowhere the average person shops will accept them\*. Can you buy a coffee with BitCoins in most cafes? Nope. Can you buy your groceries with them? Again, nope. Need to get your car serviced? Your mechanic isn’t likely to accept payment in BitCoins. And I’ll reiterate, this isn’t just a problem with people choosing not to accept them now because they’re unpopular - the way the protocol is designed, it theoretically is limited to handling 7 transactions per second (VISA, OTOH, averages something like 2000 transactions per second), and in practice it handles fewer. It also takes a significant amount of time to do so, you have to wait at least 20 minutes (IIRC) to actually confirm a bitcoin transaction while someone will get upset if swiping a card takes more than half a minute. Because of the way the blockchain works, increasing the amount of transactions would require increasing the amount of data stored and transferred by a lot or making the protocol even easier to fake. If bitcoin were to be magically installed everywhere that has a credit card reader now, it still wouldn’t get used because people would rapidly find themselves having to wait hours for the 7 transactions/second to get to their place in line or pay big extra fees to bump their transaction to the front of the line and still wait for 20 minutes if the merchant doesn’t want to risk not getting paid. Someone could argue against the first two points you made (good pr can fix a bad rep, someone could make a better end user tool) but it’s really impossible for bitcoin to handle the third point without big enough changes that I wouldn’t really consider it bitcoin anymore. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/31 "2016-04-30T16:16:13Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > And I’ll reiterate, this isn’t just a problem with people choosing not to accept them now because they’re unpopular - the way the protocol is designed, it theoretically is limited to handling 7 transactions per second (VISA, OTOH, averages something like 2000 transactions per second), and in practice it handles fewer. > … On reading this, my first thought was “what about quantum computers”? They do seem inevitable and, at least as I understand it, they’ll make finding prime divisors of large numbers a piece of cake thus speeding up transactions greatly. The problem with that is that if quantum computers can do that, then can’t they also make it easy to forge transactions? Sure, you could redesign the algorithms in ways that take advantage of these computers, but what about the existing blockchain, would it become easily hackable and therefore worthless? Then again, maybe I’m misunderstanding what quantum computing can do. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/32 "2016-04-30T16:39:05Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > On reading this, my first thought was “what about quantum computers”? They do seem inevitable and, at least as I understand it, they’ll make finding prime divisors of large numbers a piece of cake thus speeding up transactions greatly. If (when) quantum computers are all that, won’t it also become trivial for bit-coin miners to find near-unlimited troves of new bitcoins, thus debasing their value to near-uselessness? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/33 "2016-04-30T17:28:57Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > If (when) quantum computers are all that, won’t it also become trivial for bit-coin miners to find near-unlimited troves of new bitcoins, thus debasing their value to near-uselessness? People overstate the known power of quantum computers (QCs). While integer factorization and discrete log are theoretically solvable using a QC in poly time (BQP), no problem that is or even suspected to be NP-Complete has been shown to be in BQP. The block chain verification in Bitcoins uses SHA-256 hashing. Which is not known to be in BQP. So it could be safe from QCs. But I think other techniques are far more likely to realistically crack it than QCs which for non-trivial problems look _very_ pie-in-the-sky. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/34 "2016-04-30T17:59:49Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > On reading this, my first thought was “what about quantum computers”? They do seem inevitable and, at least as I understand it, they’ll make finding prime divisors of large numbers a piece of cake thus speeding up transactions greatly. Like I said, the bitcoin protocol IS DESIGNED so that it can handle seven transactions per second, it’s not a practical limitation. If you put a computer 10,000 times faster than everything mining bitcoins now, one block would get computed quickly, and then the next block would require 10,000 times the computations, so would take ten minutes just like before. If quantum computers make factoring primes trivial (not just fast), it would probably break the bitcoin protocol entirely, but it would also break a huge chunk of existing financial systems so there would be bigger worries. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/35 "2016-04-30T18:02:36Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > If (when) quantum computers are all that, won’t it also become trivial for bit-coin miners to find near-unlimited troves of new bitcoins, thus debasing their value to near-uselessness? They will be able to mine the one block extremely fast, and then the next block will become so complicated that it will take them ten minutes of computation to solve it. (Or the whole thing will just break because it wasn’t able to handle numbers that big). The ‘mining’ is really just trying to solve busy-work before anyone else does, the math isn’t making something meaningful happen. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/36 "2016-04-30T19:50:54Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If quantum computers make factoring primes trivial (not just fast), it would probably break the bitcoin protocol entirely, but it would also break a huge chunk of existing financial systems so there would be bigger worries. See my previous post. SHA-2 doesn’t involve prime factoring. There could be a wonder linear time algorithm for prime factoring posted on the Net tomorrow and it wouldn’t affect Bitcoin’s security. (It’d kill Bitcoin’s _value_ as a lot of people would _assume_ that it meant Bitcoin’s security _was_ broken. Once the price dropped, it would be a great time to buy them.) Not everything uses RSA, that would _really_ slow down transaction verification. (And what about the private keys???) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/37 "2016-04-30T21:29:02Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > See my previous post. SHA-2 doesn’t involve prime factoring. There could be a wonder linear time algorithm for prime factoring posted on the Net tomorrow and it wouldn’t affect Bitcoin’s security. (It’d kill Bitcoin’s _value_ as a lot of people would _assume_ that it meant Bitcoin’s security _was_ broken. Once the price dropped, it would be a great time to buy them.) Thanks, it’s been a couple of years since I read up on bitcoin, so I remembered how the protocol works in broad terms but not what the actual math was in it. My point remains the same though, if you come up with a faster SHA-2 calculator (and people have), it won’t change the transaction limits of bitcoin. I don’t think it’s likely that quantum computing is going to be so amazing that it makes either calculation trivial in any of our lifetimes. Bitcoin’s value is an interesting question - there’s a market for small quantities of them, but there are far more mined bitcoins than the scale of the market. If someone with a real fortune in bitcoins were to try to cash out to real money, it would likely trash the value of bitcoins, including most of their stockpile. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/38 "2016-05-01T16:23:26Z")
There’s a scenario I’ve been wondering about. The Chinese government is no fan of Bitcoins, and I’m sure they have plenty of company. What’s to stop Bitcoin-hostile nations from just buying up Bitcoins and hoarding them to keep them out of circulation? To make extra sure, they could wipe/destroy the hard drive the hoarded Bitcoins are stored on. For a nation, or several nations, it would be trivial to effectively destroy huge numbers of Bitcoins like this. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/39 "2016-05-01T16:29:42Z")
Would destroying Bitcoins en masse increase the value of the remaining ones? Or does it not work that way? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987/40 "2016-05-01T17:49:46Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Eh isn’t the fact that is untraceable about the only thing it has going for it? and the reason 90% of the uses are on child porn. Source? I find this an unbelievable percentage. While in the past people spend serious money on physical video tapes, now child porn can be transmitted easily through file sharing methods such as torrents. I would expect the biggest market would be narcotics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bitcoins-still-not-realistic/752987.md?page=3)