# Bite my sweet atheist fact-checking Bible-reading ass, Danielinthewolvesden!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 13, 2000, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276 "2000-12-13T01:38:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/1 "2000-12-13T01:38:03Z")
Now, here is Daniel’s [original post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50033&pagenumber=2):
“Umm, altho there are verses in the OT which accept slavery;compared to the slavery which was prevelant in the times, the Jewish practice was very liberal. There were all sorts of limitations set upon the owners, far more than in any other period society. Slaves were to be set free after only 6 years of service **(1)**(and when they left, they did not go empty handed, they had to be given means to make a living, eg. “thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock”)**(2)**, they were not to be mistreated, etc.**(3)** The term “indentured servant” far better defines Isrealite 'slavery”. In many ways, the Isrealites were strongly anti-slavery."
**(1)** Incorrect
**(2)** Incorrect
\*\* 3)\*\* well, it wasn’t “nice” to beat your slaves, but look at Exod 20:20-1 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.” I think I can argue that slaves were very likely mistreated, given that there is apparently no secular punishment for beating a slave so severely that he could not get up for a couple days.
Now, given the quality of his original post, and also the fact that I have frequently (and quite recently) caught him in factual errors, I tend to want some references before I accept as valid every statement that leaves his keyboard. So in his next post, he says “The isrealites of some 3000 years ago were far more liberal & humanitarian to their “servants” than any other culture, and indeed to our very own USA as little as 130 years ago.” _Interesting_, I think. _But is it true?_ So I ask for some cite to back it up. And I ask, and ask, and ask again. These are my comments to Daniel WRT this topic in the thread:
> [@](#):
>
> You realize I expect you to back this up, don’t you? 😉
> …
>
> I do not mean to be insulting, but I do mean this as criticism: I do not trust what you say unless I can independently confim it, and you will not gain my trust until you start telling _all_ the facts.
>
> …
>
> I didn’t ask abotu the treatment of slaves in America; I asked about your rather sweeping claim that Jews 3000 years ago were “far more liberal & humanitarian to their “servants” than any other culture.” [Emphasis mine.] Please back this up.
>
> …
>
> You made the statement that Jews 3000 years ago treated slaves more kindly than any other culture. This is an amazingly broad claim. I want you to back it up.
>
> …
>
> You made the claim, you back it up. I have made no claim, merely asked, repeatedly for verification of yours.
>
> …
>
> I don’t care what other people will say. Back up your statement by any means you can. Go ahead and give me the quotes from the authors that say that Jews 3000 years ago treated their slaves better than any other culture (although if it’s Asimov again, I may have to be violently ill). I am quite prepared to believe you, but you have to support your statements!
>
> …
>
> I was questioning your statement that the Jews 3000 years ago were more humane in their treatment of slaves than any other culture. You didn’t even specify “more humane for its time”, nor do I think that every minor culture has been studied, although it is difficult to tell about the treatment of slaves without a written history. Were the laws of the ancient Jews humane for their time? Yes. Do I believe that they were the most humane treatement that ever existed? No.
>
> …
>
> **DITWD** : Now, are you going to at least admit that it certainly seemed better to be an ancient Isreali slave than a Pre-war southern US slave?
>
> :amused: Admit? When did I ever dispute it? I simply wanted you to back up your statements about the ancient Jews, after I asked several times! Given your track record in this discussion, I think it would be unwise to accept everything you say that appears possibly questionable without asking for a cite. Right now my opinion of the likely accuracy of any of the “facts” you post about the Bible or ancient history is remarkably low, which is rather astounding since you post in a manner that seems to imply that you expect to be taken as someone rather learned in these areas.
>
> …
>
> Daniel, I would not have said anything if you had simply said, “For their time period, slaves were treated rather well by OT Jews.” However, your post had two rather glaring factual errors in it, and I’m not a big fan of letting those things go. If you would post a wee bit more tenatively when you are not completely rock-solid on the facts, it would be a great help; if you had said “I believe slaves were freed after 6 years” I would have corrected you a lot more mildly, and you do not look as if you are putting yourself forth as an expert.
* * *
NOW, the meat of this gripe. [Danny-boy is crowing about how he got me to “concede” the point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50490):
> [@](#):
>
> My general thesis & point was that slave/servants, in OT Isreal were protected under the Law, and, in general were much better treated that other period cultures, or even the Pre-War South-US. This has been entire conceded by gaudere, and your data helped to prove it.
I never disputed it! I just asked him to back it up! And along the way, Daniel made several other factual errors, stating that gentile slaves were freed at Jubilee (wrong), stating that Exod 20:20-1 referred to the slave being punished, not the master (also wrong), stating that gentile slaves were “made Jewish” by circumcision and were thus set free after 6 years (again wrong), that the Code of Hammurabi had no laws regarding the fair treatment of slaves (wrong-o, Dan)…is it any blasted wonder I asked him to back his statements up when so many of them are wrong?
Look at his weasel words here: he states that slaves were freed after six years, right? When proven wrong about this, he says “And how does that make me “WRONG” for saying a servant is to be freed after 6 years- i quoted numerous verses to support it? You mean that because those verses, and my statement applies to only some servant, but not all, my statement is WRONG? Come on now, you are being obtuse. The bast you can say is that my statement was overly generalized, and was incorrect when applied to all circumstances. Thus, it was right- just not in every circumstances. I did not say EVERY servant, now did I? You have to play fair too, you know.”
“It is true “slaves were freed after 6 years”- since only 2 slaves being freed by Hebrew Law would make my ststement LITERALLY true- there is no error.”
Suuuure. If I say “cats have no fur,” and it is pointed out to me that cats do indeed have fur, I can just say “oh, I didn’t say _every_ cat. There are a few bald cats, so my statement was correct.” :rolleyes:
ARRRGH!!! Sorry that I am so damn long-winded (it’s the GD training) and lacking obscenity, but I am genuinely irritated by this guy right now. Daniel, you piss me off! Don’t post bad facts in GD! Don’t weasel! Back up your statements! Stop posting like you actually know what you’re talking about when you don’t! Stop misreading every single thing you see! And _don’t_ tell me to be nice!
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### Author:  [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/2 "2000-12-13T01:54:23Z")
Well.
I, for one, am speechless.
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/3 "2000-12-13T02:03:30Z")
Hmmm. This might be a good time to bring up that whole Rob Sherman/George Bush thing again!
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### Author:  [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/4 "2000-12-13T02:03:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I, for one, am speechless.
Not surprising. I think I used up everyone’s quota of letters for the month in that post. 😉
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### Author:  [@tiggeril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiggeril)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/5 "2000-12-13T02:11:11Z")
:eek:
Um… wow.
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### Author:  [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/6 "2000-12-13T02:22:02Z")
I, frankly, have lost a lot of respect for **daniel**. There are few things that anger me more than a person who will not admit mistakes.
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### Author:  [@Ayesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ayesha)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/7 "2000-12-13T02:26:21Z")
\*\* quickly takes out her notebook and adds Gaudere’s name to the list of moderators she never wants to piss off . The list is quite long , since DavidB’s name is listed 587 times. \*\*
Oh hell did I say that out loud ?
::running away::
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### Author:  [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/8 "2000-12-13T02:42:32Z")
I stand in awe. No, I _bow_ in awe!
That was one of the finest, kickass salvos in the Fight Against Ignorance in many a long day.
Backing away, still bowing,
Veb
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### Author:  [@Fillet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fillet)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/9 "2000-12-13T02:42:32Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Gaudere \*
> \*\*\
> Daniel, you piss me off! Don’t post bad facts in GD! Don’t weasel! Back up your statements! Stop posting like you actually know what you’re talking about when you don’t! Stop misreading every single thing you see!
> \*\*
Ah, Gaudere… THANK YOU. It’s nice to know I’m not alone (please see recent GQ threads on tsunamis if you need to know what I mean).
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### Author:  [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/10 "2000-12-13T02:43:09Z")
Aww, Danny-boy’s all right… 'long as he keeps himself in MPSIMS or IMHO.
C’mon, Gaudere, are you really surprised by this behavior at this point? Most people just ignore him when the first (of presumably a dozen) feet gets wedged in his mouth.
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### Author:  [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/11 "2000-12-13T02:46:36Z")
I tried to read that thread and almost fell aspleep. Wayyyy… to much circular logic. I generally stay away from ontological arguments or bible quoting, tooooo… much interpretation. Based on the amount of interpretation involved I am really suprised that Daniel(shouldnt that be lions?)den hasnt conceeded even a little bit. Very good reasoning Gaudere, and yes you have used up all of your quotes for the month.
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### Author:  [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/12 "2000-12-13T02:57:13Z")
Not having actually SEEN your ass…I think it’s a bit presumptious to refer to it as “sweet” until I have some visual evidence…mmm 'k? 😃
…running like hell…
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### Author:  [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/13 "2000-12-13T03:02:43Z")
**SPOOFE Bo Diddly**
> [@](#):
>
> C’mon, Gaudere, are you really surprised by this behavior at this point? Most people just ignore him when the first (of presumably a dozen) feet gets wedged in his mouth.
Not surprised, just frustrated. I can’t ignore bad facts posted as if they are true. He is a pain in the ass to argue with, but it particularly peeves me that he has a chronic habit of “fudging” (or misremembering) facts about the Bible to make it appear nicer than it is. Now, I never meant to argue that OT slavery was worse that in other _contemporary_ cultures, but I won’t allow false statements to be posted that make it appear sweetness and light, either. Danny never admits doubt, either, when I suspect his knowledge of religion and history is weaker or less accurate than mine–yet he still posts as if his statements come from The Mouth of God. Bad facts are one thing, _smug_ bad facts are worse, smug bad facts and misrepresentations of my own position and ridiculous claims of victory _drive me up the wall_. He almost never backs stuff up, and I’ll take that from Chaim, tomndebb, CKDext and so on (within their areas of expertise), but I wish Daniel would start doing some fact-checking and gathering of cites _before_ the next time he decides to grace us with his expert opinion.
**beagledave**
> [@](#):
>
> Not having actually SEEN your ass…I think it’s a bit presumptious to refer to it as “sweet” until I have some visual evidence…mmm 'k?
Maybe I was referring to _taste_… 😃
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### Author:  [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/14 "2000-12-13T03:17:04Z")
Wow, Gaudere. That rant was very…concise and intelligent. I’m quite impressed.
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### Author:  [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/15 "2000-12-13T04:13:39Z")
Gaudere,
After reading your rant it took me two hours to summon the courage to crawl out of the fetal position in the corner of my room and come back to my computer. I can only imagine the years of nightmares I would have had to endure had that OP been directed towards me.
Just to be safe, though, I believe it wise for me to stop posting in GD for a few days. I…I…I just can’t handle the pressure. I’m going back to my corner now.
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### Author:  [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/16 "2000-12-13T04:21:35Z")
::tongue firmly in cheek::
[sub]and what a fine factcheckin’ ass it is![/sub]
I’m impressed to say the least! Can I be your disciple? I promise to study your teachings, learn your ways, compile your words so others may see the radiant wisdom, wash and massage your feet, and any other such duties as may be deemed appropriate?
Oh for the chance to learn at the hands of a master debater!
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### Author:  [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/17 "2000-12-13T04:44:51Z")
… mighty fine post, Gaudere.
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### Author:  [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/18 "2000-12-13T08:26:06Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Gaudere \*
> misrepresentations of my own position and ridiculous claims of victory _drive me up the wall_. \*\*
So, umm, you are admitting I won? 😛 😃 :wally
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### Author:  [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/19 "2000-12-13T09:26:54Z")
OK- that last post was designed to infuriate an already pissed off gaudere. And that was un-Christian & un-gentlemanly of me. I am sorry- i apologize.
I have also admited, (now in several posts) that in several non-critical cites & points i made- that gaudere had better cites than me- I was wrong.
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### Author:  [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)
#### Post date: [December 13, 2000, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bite-my-sweet-atheist-fact-checking-bible-reading-ass-danielinthewolvesden/45276/20 "2000-12-13T09:56:02Z")
[QUOTE]
\*Originally posted by Gaudere \*
So in his next post, he says “The isrealites of some 3000 years ago were far more liberal & humanitarian to their “servants” than any other culture, and indeed to our very own USA as little as 130 years ago.” So I ask for some cite to back it up. And I ask, and ask, and ask again. These are my comments to Daniel WRT this topic in the thread:
> [@](#):
>
> You realize I expect you to back this up, don’t you? 😉
> …
>
> I do not mean to be insulting, but I do mean this as criticism: I do not trust what you say unless I can independently confim it, and you will not gain my trust until you start telling _all_ the facts.
>
> …
>
> I didn’t ask abotu the treatment of slaves in America; I asked about your rather sweeping claim that Jews 3000 years ago were “far more liberal & humanitarian to their “servants” than any other culture.” [Emphasis mine.] Please back this up.
>
> …
>
> You made the statement that Jews 3000 years ago treated slaves more kindly than any other culture. This is an amazingly broad claim. I want you to back it up.
>
> …
>
> You made the claim, you back it up. I have made no claim, merely asked, repeatedly for verification of yours.
>
> …
>
> I don’t care what other people will say. Back up your statement by any means you can. Go ahead and give me the quotes from the authors that say that Jews 3000 years ago treated their slaves better than any other culture (although if it’s Asimov again, I may have to be violently ill). I am quite prepared to believe you, but you have to support your statements!
>
> …
>
> I was questioning your statement that the Jews 3000 years ago were more humane in their treatment of slaves than any other culture. You didn’t even specify “more humane for its time”, nor do I think that every minor culture has been studied, although it is difficult to tell about the treatment of slaves without a written history. Were the laws of the ancient Jews humane for their time? Yes. Do I believe that they were the most humane treatement that ever existed?
>
> :amused: Admit? When did I ever dispute it? I simply wanted you to back up your statements about the ancient Jews, after I asked several times!
> \*\*
\ You asked me to back up that conclusion. You did not specify which part. So, i backed up the part about Pre-WAs southern US. Nope, you said. So, then i gave you cites (and no asimov) that backed up that the isrealis were more humane than the other cultures- for their time. Now, what you wanted, was for me to back up something that I did not mean- ie that the Ancient isrealis were more humane than any other culture that ever existed. I thought my statement was clear, that in context I meant “PERIOD culture”. Would it have hurt you to simply ask, to clarify- “Daniel- did you really mean to state that they were more humane than in ANY culture ever in history? If so, I expect you to back that up”. Then- i could have clarified my statement. So- why attack & go on & on, when a simple polite request for clarification would have solved it?
If you really want to debate folks- you could be nice. You do not have to be- you can ambush & attack if you like. You can "prove’ minor, non-critcal points are wrong- and be happy that you did so. But- would it hurt to be nicer?
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