# Bittersweet Symphony is a cover-mix? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 6, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650 "2003-07-06T23:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/1 "2003-07-06T23:23:51Z")
My girlfriend told me that she once heard the violins tune of “Bittersweet Symphony” as a totaly independent track. But she doesn’t remember the name. Would some good Doper tell me which music did she hear? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/2 "2003-07-06T23:30:42Z")
A quick Google search (on Bittersweet Symphony Rolling Stones) suggests it’s ‘The Last Time’. ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/3 "2003-07-06T23:31:48Z")
(Oops!) I’m not sure if my girlfriend is sure of The Verve’s “Bittersweet Symphony”, so this is not trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/4 "2003-07-06T23:33:42Z")
:smack: I put the third post _before_ the second post. Any one knows it for sure? (the OP) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/5 "2003-07-06T23:41:55Z")
IIRC, the Verve got sued over that song for failing to credit/compensate someone. ---
**Author:** ![Intaglio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71e660/32.png) [@Intaglio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intaglio)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/6 "2003-07-06T23:53:00Z")
How did keith Richards even know that the Verve sampled the Rolling Stones? I love Bittersweet Symphony. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/7 "2003-07-06T23:59:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Intaglio \* > **How did keith Richards even know that the Verve sampled the Rolling Stones?** I don’t know, how does a dead guy keep touring and making records? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/8 "2003-07-07T00:41:21Z")
Errr… I saw what happened… I was not referring at the verses melody: Bittersweet Symphony: _Cause it’s a bittersweet symphony, this life… Try to make ends meet you’re a slave to money then you die_ The Last Time: _Well I told you once and I told you twice… But ya never listen to my advice_. Those parts are very similar. I was referring to the initial violin performance (that repeats later in many sections of the song). Could it be another track? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/9 "2003-07-07T01:02:12Z")
This is the story as told by [VH1’s Top 100 One-Hit Wonders](http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/the_greatest/62176/episode_wildcard.jhtml?wildcard=/shows/dynamic/includes/wildcards/the_greatest/ohw_list_full.jhtml&event_id=862804&start=61): The violin track sample was, umm, “acquired” from the _orchestral version_ of “The Last Time” by **The Rolling Stones**. You won’t hear it in the commonly released version; indeed, I’m not sure if the orchestral version is still in print. Unfortunately, the band forgot to ask permission, and after it became a hit, the Rolling Stones sued. Now, instead of receiving a cash settlement, or merely gaining songwriting credit (as when Queen & David Bowie sued Vanilla Ice for stealing the bass riff of “Under Pressure”) – Jagger & Richards were awarded the _full distribution rights_ to the song. In effect, the song was theirs, with all control & royalties that go with it. They immediately licensed “Bittersweet Symphony” for use in AT&T and Nike commercials, making millions in the process. When interviewed for the VH1 show, Keith Richards said: “Wot? Am I supposed to be flattered, that they stole from us? No! They were ripping us off!” Followed by an evil cackle that could only be emulated by the most pernicious of James Bond villains. [rant] And here ends the story of a young and struggling band who were financially raped by lawyers and musicians far more powerful than them, all for the mistake of using a sample track that they did not have permission to use. One wonders, indeed, if Jagger/Richards even wrote that particular violin part – which matters little, in the eye of the law, since they _did_ own the song itself. Kudos to the Rolling Stones, who became richer by millions, for a song they did not write, while The Verve itself went bankrupt and broke up as a result of the scandal. Clearly, The Verve was reckless in using a musical piece they did not own…but was their punishment worth the crime? I think not. [/end rant] ---
**Author:** ![Delly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Delly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delly)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/10 "2003-07-07T02:36:20Z")
Grousser: IT was definatly the Verve & the Rolling Stones. KGS: I remember the Verve having several releases after the scandal of Bitter Sweet Symphony, now Il agree while none became the massive hit that BSS was, I dont know can you fully blame there break up on that situation, I mean surely it would have happened sooner [the break up I mean] rather then later [when X amount of singles were released]. I know you can partly blame the Rolling Stones for there break up, but a major part of there break up was the fact that the music industry was changing. Alot. and around that time it was basically when cheesy pop started to come back into play. I think it was just bad timing for that group. I mean if they were struggling so much after that case, why was Richard Ashcroft able to come out with a couple releases as a solo artist? Why was he different from the rest of the group? About Ashcroft, anyone who hasnt heard ‘The Song For the Lovers’ by him and likes the Verve, should check out that song, its amazing. imho. ---
**Author:** ![Intaglio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71e660/32.png) [@Intaglio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intaglio)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/11 "2003-07-07T03:27:42Z")
I made the KR remark in jest, a joke - as Keith Richards is so Brain Dead from drugs, to even know where the sample for Bittersweet Symphony came from. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/12 "2003-07-07T03:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Intaglio \* > \*\*I made the KR remark in jest, a joke - as Keith Richards is so Brain Dead from drugs, to even know where the sample for Bittersweet Symphony came from. \*\* Yeah, I got that.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![lurker\_anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc348/32.png) [@lurker\_anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurker_anonymous)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/13 "2003-07-07T04:34:58Z")
Thanks for asking the question…that has bugged me too, that I had “heard that before”…I kept thinking along the lines of “She’s a Rainbow”. Can we have a “close but no cigar” smilie? ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/14 "2003-07-07T07:07:31Z")
I haven’t heard the orchestral version of The Last Time, but hearing this track, I can’t find how the the violin part came into the orchestral version. In other words, then the violin part is not borrowed from the Rolling Stone. The verse part did. Then I got to hear the orch. version to solve the riddle of my OP and to keep my girlfriend’s admiration. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/15 "2003-07-07T07:24:20Z")
I don’t believe that Jagger and Richards had anything to do with the case. Their former managers Alan Klein and Andrew Loog Oldham did the dirty work. Klein and his company Abkco received the royalties as it controls the songwriting copyright to all songs the Stones wrote through 1970. Oldham later sued because he had done the orchestral version. ---
**Author:** ![Grousser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Grousser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grousser)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/16 "2003-07-07T07:28:48Z")
Ok, maybe this answers my question: could it be the Andrew Loog Oldhan Orchestra version the version my girlfriend heard? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/17 "2003-07-07T07:36:17Z")
> [@](#): > > The recording The Verve sampled is a version of the Stones’ 1965 hit “The Last Time” that Oldham recorded for an album called The Rolling Stones Songbook, a collection of symphonic remakes released under the moniker the Andrew Oldham Orchestra. From [VH1](http://www.vh1.com/artists/news/511079/01111999/verve.jhtml) about the case. ---
**Author:** ![Muldoon\_s\_Squishiness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Muldoon\_s\_Squishiness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muldoon_s_Squishiness)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/18 "2003-07-07T16:25:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > \*\*This is the story as told by [VH1’s Top 100 One-Hit Wonders](http://www.vh1.com/shows/dyn/the_greatest/62176/episode_wildcard.jhtml?wildcard=/shows/dynamic/includes/wildcards/the_greatest/ohw_list_full.jhtml&event_id=862804&start=61): > > The violin track sample was, umm, “acquired” from the _orchestral version_ of “The Last Time” by **The Rolling Stones**. You won’t hear it in the commonly released version; indeed, I’m not sure if the orchestral version is still in print. > > Unfortunately, the band forgot to ask permission, and after it became a hit, the Rolling Stones sued. Now, instead of receiving a cash settlement, or merely gaining songwriting credit (as when Queen & David Bowie sued Vanilla Ice for stealing the bass riff of “Under Pressure”) – Jagger & Richards were awarded the _full distribution rights_ to the song. In effect, the song was theirs, with all control & royalties that go with it. > > They immediately licensed “Bittersweet Symphony” for use in AT&T and Nike commercials, making millions in the process. > > \*\* Christ, do you know **anything** about the music business that is actually true or factual? Apparently not.:rolleyes: First of all, Jaggar and Richards don’t own the rights to the majority of their recordings from the 1960’s, including the track that the Verve used. those rights are owned and held by Abkco, which is the music publishing company owned by Allen Klein, who was the Rolling Stones business manager for a time in the 1960’s until they realized that he was skimming way too much off the top, whereupon they fired him, but he being a lawyer sued and the end result was his owning the rights to said songs. Now, the Verve come along and lift a sample from an album of orchestral recordings of Rolling Stones songs that was made in the late 1960’s and which Allen Klein owns the rights to, Jagger and Richards have **no say whatsoever in it** and when Klein finds out, he sues the Verve and the settlement is reached thusly: 1)The Verve sign over 100% of the publishing rights to Jagger/Richards, which in this particular case actually means Allen Klein/Abcko. 1. The Verve receive no royalties from the song whatsoever. 2. The song cannot be put on any other Verve album, be it greatest hits or otherwise, nor can it be put on any other compilation album. When Jagger was asked to intervene, he quite rightly said that "_There’s nothing I can do, as I don’t own the rights anymore, Allen Klein does."_ If you are going to use something as a source/cite, there are a lot more reputable ones then VH!-1 One Hit Wonders. try [all music](http://www.allmusic.com) ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bittersweet-symphony-is-a-cover-mix/186650/19 "2003-07-07T16:47:42Z")
**BogieBlanca** - YOU AGAIN?? Are you stalking me, dude? Ok, so my only cite was a VH1 program, which I know, is about the suckiest cite you can ask for. 😃 Still, the quote/cackle by Keith Richards at least shows his ATTITUDE over the whole mess. (And I think I must insist on a direct cite for Jagger’s remarks, sir.) Oh, and the AMG shouldn’t be taken as gospel, either. That is all.