# Black Africans and Ancient Egypt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078 "2017-05-20T13:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![femmejean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/0ea827/32.png) [@femmejean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/femmejean)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/1 "2017-05-20T13:57:33Z")
Apparently scientists dispute the bloodline of the Ancient Egyptians. Some say they were closer to modern day Black Africans than Caucasians but other studies say otherwise. What’s the truth about this? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/2 "2017-05-20T14:10:19Z")
What do you mean by “closer to modern day Black Africans”? Black Africans are not one single group. There’s considerably more genetic diversity among Africans than in the rest of the world combined. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/3 "2017-05-20T14:12:50Z")
> [@femmejean](#): > > Apparently scientists dispute the bloodline of the Ancient Egyptians. Some say they were closer to modern day Black Africans than Caucasians but other studies say otherwise. > > What’s the truth about this? Ancient Egypt lasted about 3000 years, from the pre dynastic era to the final conquest by the Romans under Octavian after Actim in 30BC. Egypt saw many bands of peoples and conquerors in that time. You had black Nubians to red headed probably Hyksos descended Ramses dynasty and everything else. And they mixed and continued to do so. Your language is what mother spoke. Your ethnicity is what grandad said it was. Your “bloodline” is whatever is convenient. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/4 "2017-05-20T14:15:07Z")
Wasn’t it clear? He said closer as compared to Caucasians. One could claim that any population is “not a single group”. But I’d like to see a cite that there is scientific controversy about this before answering the question. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/5 "2017-05-20T14:23:44Z")
I was thinking I ran across a old long, insane thread on this subject, but some googling shows that that thread was about [European royalty being black](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544874). [Plenty of older threads](https://www.google.com/#q=afrocentrism+egypt+site:boards.straightdope.com) are on Afrocentrism and Egypt, though. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/6 "2017-05-20T14:36:04Z")
The claim that Egyptians were substantially (on up to “wholly”) black, sub-Saharan Africans is pretty much nonsense promoted in the last few decades by (for want of a better word) “black pride” groups, and not much more accurate in the historical record than the invention from whole cloth of the “goddess religions” the power-feminist factions promote/d. There were are are undoubtedly strains of all African groups in the long lines of Egyptian genealogy, including “Nubian” from the south, but no serious expert denies that the original founding and major northern component of the population are of Indus Valley/Mediterranean origins. They were not Caucasian (except perhaps in a technical sense) and would not pass for anything like northern or central European today. All good evidence is that they would look, individually and as crowds, much like what we see in the Middle East today. With some lighter and darker variations, and some negroid features from Nubian slave girl grandmothers and scribes, and the mix you’d expect from a civilization spanning three millennia and nearly half a huge and varied continent. But in general, treat any 'black Egypt" claims with great suspicion until they’re backed with accepted sources and interpretations, not some revelation from the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/7 "2017-05-20T14:44:00Z")
Black southern Nubians are [clearly depicted as a different colour](https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/10/14/nubians-in-ancient-egyptian-art/) in Egyptian art than Egyptians. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/8 "2017-05-20T15:15:07Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > There were are are undoubtedly strains of all African groups in the long lines of Egyptian genealogy, including “Nubian” from the south, but no serious expert denies that the original founding and major northern component of the population are of Indus Valley/Mediterranean origins. They were not Caucasian (except perhaps in a technical sense) and would not pass for anything like northern or central European today. All good evidence is that they would look, individually and as crowds, much like what we see in the Middle East today. Indus Valley??? Egypt is on the Mediterranean Sea so that makes it Mediterranean by definition. What possible proof do you have for **any** Indus Valley origin? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/9 "2017-05-20T15:16:36Z")
> [@femmejean](#): > > Apparently scientists dispute the bloodline of the Ancient Egyptians. Some say they were closer to modern day Black Africans than Caucasians but other studies say otherwise. > > What’s the truth about this? A couple of scientists, a few scientists, or a majority? Where are you reading this, and what kind of “scientists” are saying this? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/10 "2017-05-20T15:24:02Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > There were are are undoubtedly strains of all African groups in the long lines of Egyptian genealogy, including “Nubian” from the south, but no serious expert denies that the original founding and major northern component of the population are of Indus Valley/Mediterranean origins. They were not Caucasian (except perhaps in a technical sense) and would not pass for anything like northern or central European today. All good evidence is that they would look, individually and as crowds, much like what we see in the Middle East today. > . middle eastern people of course also show a lot of variation in physical phenotype as well. There are blond-haired, blue-eyed Circassians in Jordan and then there are Yemenis who look quite “African”, like that girl in the National Geographic piece on yemen about ten years ago. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/11 "2017-05-20T15:34:25Z")
the master [speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1703/was-cleopatra-black)! ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/12 "2017-05-20T15:37:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > the master [speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1703/was-cleopatra-black)! Close, “SDStaff DavidB, Straight Dope Science Advisory Board” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/13 "2017-05-20T15:37:58Z")
It’s startling to realize that the major founding text of Afrocentrism, [Black Athena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Athena) by Martin Bernal, is now 30 years old. It caused a huge controversy when it first appeared, with counter-books and counter-counter-books flying back and forth. AFAIK, the most specific claims about African founding of Mediterranean cultures have been completely discredited. This is now pretty old stuff. My impression is that pretty much everybody realized he had way overstepped his case, possibly just to provoke people and remind them of the overwhelming racism that pervades classics studies, and a better balanced look at the diversity of the past has resulted. For this thread, I think the best online one-page read is [What Race Were the Ancient Egyptians?](http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html) It collects a variety of Egyptian painting clearly depicting different skin colors for Syrians, Nubians, Libyans, and Egyptians. That Egyptians and Nubians were consistently depicted as black while Egyptians thought of themselves as brown makes it difficult to sell the idea that the population saw itself as black. That is not exactly the same as a racial difference, though. > [@](#): > > It is apparent that the ancient Egyptians did not make racial distinctions themselves, but rather ethnic distinctions based on nationality. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/14 "2017-05-20T15:39:47Z")
Tomb paintings usually depicted Nubians with noticeably darker skin than Egyptians. Tomb paintings usually depicted Hittites and Canaanites with noticeably lighter skin than Egyptians. However, color in Egyptian art was often meant to convey symbolic meaning, rather than literal representation, so one should be cautious about drawing any conclusions. An interesting essay on the topic: [The Symbolic Use of Color in Ancient Egyptian Art](https://warboar.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/color/) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/15 "2017-05-20T15:44:38Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > … > For this thread, I think the best online one-page read is [What Race Were the Ancient Egyptians?](http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html) It collects a variety of Egyptian painting clearly depicting different skin colors for Syrians, Nubians, Libyans, and Egyptians. That \*\*Egyptians \*\*and Nubians were consistently depicted as black while Egyptians thought of themselves as brown makes it difficult to sell the idea that the population saw itself as black. That is not exactly the same as a racial difference, though. Bolding mine. Bummer of a typo there **Exapno**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/16 "2017-05-20T15:50:06Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Bummer of a typo there **Exapno**. 🙂 Once I start typing my fingers take on a life of their own. Let me retype that properly. For this thread, I think the best online one-page read is [What Race Were the Ancient Egyptians?](http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html) It collects a variety of Egyptian painting clearly depicting different skin colors for Syrians, Nubians, Libyans, and Egyptians. That Nubians were consistently depicted as black while Egyptians thought of themselves as brown makes it difficult to sell the idea that the population saw itself as black. That is not exactly the same as a racial difference, though. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/17 "2017-05-20T15:53:34Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Close, “SDStaff DavidB, Straight Dope Science Advisory Board” :smack: sorry! For some reason I never see the bylines in those articles; some mental glitch or something. mc ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/18 "2017-05-20T16:01:14Z")
Here is a fairly lifelike depiction of an Egyptian couple who lived [5000 years ago](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Ra%27_Hotep_%26_his_wife_Nefert..jpg). What would you call them. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/19 "2017-05-20T16:52:43Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Here is a fairly lifelike depiction of an Egyptian couple who lived [5000 years ago](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Ra%27_Hotep_%26_his_wife_Nefert..jpg). > > What would you call them. Jared and Ivanka? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078/20 "2017-05-20T17:04:44Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Indus Valley??? Egypt is on the Mediterranean Sea so that makes it Mediterranean by definition. What possible proof do you have for **any** Indus Valley origin? I’d have to go back through some older books in my AEgyptian collection, but my understanding is that the population of Egypt at the time of Narmer was formed of inflow from both Northern Africa and travelers/captives/migrants from Mesopotamia. Of course, this is probably spanning millennia before Duane Johnson turned into a Scorpion, but war with the adjacent Asian nations certainly added Caucasian/Mesopotamian/Hittite and other peoples to the mix by the time of the Old Kingdom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-africans-and-ancient-egypt/787078.md?page=2)