# Black are better at music—Or fuck you Diogenes the Cynic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 29, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311 "2008-04-29T03:00:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/121 "2008-04-29T15:22:45Z")
[QUOTE=Harmonious Discord] This is the most racist bullshit I’ve seen for a while, and I’m not going to touch this argument. I’ll just take note of certain players that have gone way down in my respect for them. [/QUOTE] \*That \*was racist and what \*\*Dio \*\*said _wasn’t_? Really? “Blacks are better at music?” What if I said “Whites are better at math than Blacks”? Would that be racist? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/122 "2008-04-29T15:22:57Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Perhaps I wasn’t so wise, afterall, when he posts stuff like this: That is just trolling, if you ask me. But what do I know-- it’s just my opinion. I’m not an expert troll spotter. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure I’d call it trolling, but I _would_ probably call it something more unflattering than that, so I’ll refrain from comment. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/123 "2008-04-29T15:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Culture. I misunderstood what the study was claiming the first time I read it. [/QUOTE] And now I’m really confused. You read a study, misunderstood it, and based your entire opinion on this subject on that misunderstanding, despite the fact that you’re a musician and have an expert opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/124 "2008-04-29T15:28:06Z")
Oh, for fuck’s sake, **Dio** , surely you’re not stupid enough to assert that “I like x better than y” equates to “x is better than y” for something as entirely subjective as music, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/125 "2008-04-29T15:28:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] And now I’m really confused. You read a study, misunderstood it, and based your entire opinion on this subject on that misunderstanding, despite the fact that you’re a musician and have an expert opinion? [/QUOTE] No. I already had my (expert) opinions about music. I just thought the study made sense as an _explanation_ for something which I had already observed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/126 "2008-04-29T15:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Oh, for fuck’s sake, **Dio** , surely you’re not stupid enough to assert that “I like x better than y” equates to “x is better than y” for something as entirely subjective as music, are you? [/QUOTE] He’s an expert on the objectively measurable goodness of music. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/127 "2008-04-29T15:32:14Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t believe race exists biologically at all (I see the difference I’m being pitted for alleging to exist as cultural, not biological), much less that it’s a determinant of anything and I certainly don’t discriminate, so I don’t fit any of this criteria. [/QUOTE] Wrong again, though that’s nothing new in this thread. [Scroll down](http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002604.html) for six references on distinct genetic clusterings within major groups (races). Also see [Lewotnin’s Fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy), the most common argument against such categorization. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/128 "2008-04-29T15:32:50Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Oh, for fuck’s sake, **Dio** , surely you’re not stupid enough to assert that “I like x better than y” equates to “x is better than y” for something as entirely subjective as music, are you? [/QUOTE] If I say “Shakespeare is better than Rob Schneider,” do I have to put an “IMO” in front of it? Cafe threads are full of simple declarations about what sucks and what’s better than what. Only I get pitted for it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/129 "2008-04-29T15:36:32Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] No. I already had my (expert) opinions about music. I just thought the study made sense as an _explanation_ for something which I had already observed. [/QUOTE] But all along, you didn’t believe race exists biologically? Or this was a determination you made after you realized you misunderstood the study? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/130 "2008-04-29T15:37:39Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Wrong again, though that’s nothing new in this thread. [Scroll down](http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002604.html) for six references on distinct genetic clusterings within major groups (races). Also see [Lewotnin’s Fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy), the most common argument against such categorization. [/QUOTE] Fuck off back to Stormfront, dude. There is no such biological category as a human “race.” The moron on your linked page talks about genetic clusters, but that’s not the same as a “race.” Keep your sicko, pseudo-science race theories out of my pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/131 "2008-04-29T15:40:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] But all along, you didn’t believe race exists biologically? Or this was a determination you made after you realized you misunderstood the study? [/QUOTE] I have never thought tht race was a biological category, I didn’t take the study to mean that when I read it. I thought it was saying that the brains were neurologically affected by pedaogical differences, not genetic ones. After reading it again, I wasn’t so sure it was making any neurological claims at all. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/132 "2008-04-29T15:42:16Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] He just fails to recognize it, or rectify it. [/QUOTE] True enough. But (and I am neither speaking for him or defending him)–BUT, there is something about pile ons that make the focus of them not want to back down. Call it cussedness or stubbornness or stupidity or whatever, it is there. And I’m not sure I blame them. In a way, it’s like a walk of shame. I’ve participated in several pile ons and while I may have been angry at the time, further reflection makes me wonder what the purpose really is. Like the RO meme we have now (and it’s a great way to deal with all the slings and arrows this world delivers), the pile on is an almost ritualized tradition here. What, exactly, is **Dio** supposed to do here? If he apologizes–to whom is he saying sorry? All black people? They so don’t care. All the black posters here? Why just them–surely we can find some white or other race that is offended for not being called musical? All the posters here? Most haven’t even read the thread. Should he name every poster he’s disagreed with in here and apologize to them? What is he apologizing for? For mis-speaking? For harboring unbeknownst to himself a particle of racial stereotyping that (as far as I can see, which may not be far) harms no one? Why is he apologizing for being human? We none of us are without our own petty prejudgements, no matter the color of our skin. I get that the Pit is where we all bay for blood and all, but seriously–what are you all looking for here? Do you consider him the Eliot Spitzer of the Pit and therefore take glee in his shortcomings? What? I’ve never understood just what the piled on is supposed to do. For some here, nothing short of falling on a sword and being buried in unhallowed ground is enough–and even then, some would spit on the grave. I just don’t get it. So, forgive this hijack, but I needed to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/133 "2008-04-29T15:44:29Z")
[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett] I wondering why **Diogenes the Cynic** isn’t getting the same pile-on treatment that others get for saying much less. Are the usual suspects intimidated by him or something? [/QUOTE] I don’t know if I’m a usual suspect but I do know all about sticking my foot in my mouth. I will say one thing, **Dio** doesn’t give up and I guess if feels he’s right he shouldn’t. I always feel better after I admit I screwed up though. Oh and by the way, Jeff Beck, Hello ! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/134 "2008-04-29T15:48:16Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Oh and by the way, Jeff Beck, Hello ! [/QUOTE] Great technique. Incredible tone (nobody can hit and hold one note better than Beck). Not exactly an influential composer, though. Even his signature song, “Beck’s Bolero,” was written by Jimmy Page. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/135 "2008-04-29T15:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Sorry, anybody who singlehandedly destroyed jazz by inventing Fusion, does not rise to the level of Bach. Fuckstick. [/QUOTE] OK, I wasn’t going to jump into this really and truly dumbassed ‘pitting’ but friend, Jazz, as it was in the 40’s and 50’s was a pile a milky dust before brother Miles blew the breath of cool into it. I’m not sure he’s on the same level as Bach, conversely, Bach has NOTHING on Miles Davis, still both were pioneers and visionaries in their own respective time and age. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/136 "2008-04-29T15:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Fuck off back to Stormfront, dude. There is no such biological category as a human “race.” The moron on your linked page talks about genetic clusters, but that’s not the same as a “race.” Keep your sicko, pseudo-science race theories out of my pit thread. [/QUOTE] Thjis was too harsh, **Athelas** , I’m sorry. I dodn’t like people of accusing me of being a racist, so it’s bullshit hypocrisy for me to turn around and do the same thing. My apologies. I’m still right about the biology, though. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/137 "2008-04-29T15:56:44Z")
Of course, you all realize that **2.5" o’ fun** finally came up with an outrage thread we all agree with, right? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/138 "2008-04-29T16:02:17Z")
Yes, it appears the blind squirrel has finally found his nut. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/139 "2008-04-29T16:07:13Z")
What’s wrong with saying races have genetic/biological traits? That seems to be supported by science. [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/us/11dna.html?\_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=login&ref=science&pagewanted=1&adxnnlx=1209484906-E9vbJm4IpChrmHR7HD15Dw](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/us/11dna.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=login&ref=science&pagewanted=1&adxnnlx=1209484906-E9vbJm4IpChrmHR7HD15Dw) > [@](#): > > Scientists, for instance, have recently identified small changes in DNA that account for the pale skin of Europeans, the tendency of Asians to sweat less and West Africans’ resistance to certain diseases. > > At the same time, genetic information is slipping out of the laboratory and into everyday life, carrying with it the inescapable message that people of different races have different DNA. Ancestry tests tell customers what percentage of their genes are from Asia, Europe, Africa and the Americas. The heart-disease drug BiDil is marketed exclusively to African-Americans, who seem genetically predisposed to respond to it. Jews are offered prenatal tests for genetic disorders rarely found in other ethnic groups. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311/140 "2008-04-29T16:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Dropped out of school? Couldn’t handle all that object learnin’? For the life of me though, if I had the skill to be classical guitar, I could not imagiine choosing to play something else, especially metal—which I admittedly don’t get. But a good friend of mine I worked with was like you. I knew he had been in metal bands, than one day he started playing some classical Spanish piece. I was floored. [/quote] With you there. I also love how some artists have blended classic Spanish guitar with New Age – [Cesar Fornes Berlanga](http://www.cesarfornesberlanga.com/) comes to mind…though there are quite a few more. You can find a few of them here: [Nuevo Flamenco / World Fusion / New Age](http://www.bolero-records.com/bolero_web/bolero_artists.html) Classic? There’s the former master, Andres Segovia and the current one, Paco de Lucia. > [@](#): > > But then you went and made that comment about basketball. I KNOW you’re not trying to tell me that some black player is better than Bob Coozy? I mean, I’ve never even seen anyone attempt that running two-hand chest shot. And he used to pass the ball around his back!!! So, come on!!! “Coozy”?! What a doozy, poor Cousy. And as good as he was, Bird’s still The MAN when it comes to white b-ball players. Currently, hard to avoid thinking of Steve Nash when the topic comes up… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-are-better-at-music-or-fuck-you-diogenes-the-cynic/447311.md?page=8)