# "Black Brunch" protesting in "white spaces" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038 "2015-01-05T14:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/181 "2015-01-15T13:54:23Z")
Harassment, sure. But this is a protest. The protesters believe - rightly or wrongly - that treatment of African-American men by police won’t change until white people start demanding change. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/182 "2015-01-15T15:19:21Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Targeted harassment based on race isn’t racist? It’s not based on race as race, though. It wasn’t directed at white people because this protest group (which isn’t all-black, for whatever that’s worth) considers whites to be inferior, or inherently different in any way from anyone else. It’s because white people hold most of the power in American society. That’s just an objective fact, not a racist belief. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/183 "2015-01-15T22:51:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If I’m following you… > > Tailoring and marketing a message for a certain racial group = not racist. > Expressing that message in a disruptive way = racist > > I don’t get it, at all. You seem to be saying that using racial classifications to treat people differently, in the sense of marketing to them, isn’t racism unless the message is presented in a particular way (in person), that isn’t socially acceptable. The racism comes from the way the message is delivered, in other words, not from how the “target” is selected. Evidently this makes sense to you, but I remain confused. Oh well. Thanks taking the time to explain. Since you wish to see these protesters as some kind of updated Mad Men advertising agency, it’s little wonder that you’re confused. These racist protesters targeted what they themselves identified as “white spaces”. Maybe “white spaces” means something else to you, but to me, it sounds like they were hunting people to harass, and abuse, but only white people. These racist protesters could have sent out mailers, made phone calls, made the same speeches on the streets, taken out ads, bought airtime, to published the names of the honored dead, including how they actually died. Maybe Eric “fast and furious” Holder, or the U.S. Post Office could have supplied the racist protesters with a list of white people to target? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/184 "2015-01-15T22:54:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s not based on race as race, though. It wasn’t directed at white people because this protest group (which isn’t all-black, for whatever that’s worth) considers whites to be inferior, or inherently different in any way from anyone else. It’s because white people hold most of the power in American society. That’s just an objective fact, not a racist belief. It’s still targeted harassment based on the color of someone’s skin. On private property (for whatever that’s worth). ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/185 "2015-01-16T00:24:20Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Since you wish to see these protesters as some kind of updated Mad Men advertising agency, it’s little wonder that you’re confused. They are like an agency in that they were trying to get a specific message to a specific audience, sure. > [@doorhinge](#): > > These racist protesters targeted what they themselves identified as “white spaces”. Maybe “white spaces” means something else to you, but to me, it sounds like they were hunting people to harass, and abuse, but only white people. Where are you getting this? > [@article in the OP](#): > > About three dozen people participated in demonstrations in New York, where they momentarily “disrupted” meals at popular midtown eateries, including Lallisse, Maialino and Pershing Square — places protesters identified as predominantly “white spaces.” > > At each stop, demonstrators read the names of African-Americans killed by police. Reading names aloud in a one-off protest isn’t harassment, or abuse. Those words mean things. > [@doorhinge](#): > > These racist protesters could have sent out mailers, Costs money. > [@doorhinge](#): > > made phone calls, Costs money. > [@doorhinge](#): > > made the same speeches on the streets, [They do that.](http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/12/14/black_lives_matter_tens_of_thousands) > [@doorhinge](#): > > taken out ads, Costs money. > [@doorhinge](#): > > bought airtime, to published the names of the honored dead, including how they actually died. Costs money. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Maybe Eric “fast and furious” Holder, or the U.S. Post Office could have supplied the racist protesters with a list of white people to target? It isn’t hard to find white people in America. They’re all over the place. You come off as being terrified of roving black people attacking you for being white, or something. Seriously, these were “momentary” disruptions at which names were read, not the LA riots. > [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s still targeted harassment based on the color of someone’s skin. On private property (for whatever that’s worth). It’s not harassment, but yes, it’s more-or-less targeted at white people. Again, white people hold the power in this country. Any political change these protests bring about will depend on the actions of affluent white people, or they won’t happen. Do you disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/186 "2015-01-16T00:57:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They are like an agency in that they were trying to get a specific message to a specific audience, sure. > > Where are you getting this? > > Reading names aloud in a one-off protest isn’t harassment, or abuse. Those words mean things. > > Costs money. > > Costs money. > > [They do that.](http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/12/14/black_lives_matter_tens_of_thousands) > > Costs money. > > Costs money. > > It isn’t hard to find white people in America. They’re all over the place. > > You come off as being terrified of roving black people attacking you for being white, or something. Seriously, these were “momentary” disruptions at which names were read, not the LA riots. > > It’s not harassment, but yes, it’s more-or-less targeted at white people. Again, white people hold the power in this country. Any political change these protests bring about will depend on the actions of affluent white people, or they won’t happen. Do you disagree with that? - You believe the protesters are just like some advertising agency. An advertising agency without any money. The racist protesters aren’t “advertising” anything. - Where am I getting what? You followed your - Where are you getting this? - question with an “Originally Posted by article in the OP” quote that says, “- places protesters identified as predominantly “white spaces”. It came from the OP and linked article. - Again, the “article in the OP” says that people “disrupted” meals at popular midtown eateries". Disrupting my eggs benedict IS harassment and abuse. Take your (not you) racist, horseshit, advertising some place else. - I assume you posted the wrong link. - Really? I’m trying to come off as someone who doesn’t want to be harassed by roving bands of racist protesters. - Yes, it is harassment. You agree that the protesters targeted white people. - No, I do not agree that any political change these protests bring about will depend on the actions of affluent white people, or they won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/187 "2015-01-16T02:29:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > - You believe the protesters are just like some advertising agency. An advertising agency without any money. The racist protesters aren’t “advertising” anything. Yes, they are. They are promoting an idea. No, they aren’t selling a product, but they are marketing something. That’s all protests are: marketing campaigns. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - Where am I getting what? This: > [@](#): > > …it sounds like they were hunting people to harass, and abuse, but only white people. > [@doorhinge](#): > > You followed your - Where are you getting this? - question with an “Originally Posted by article in the OP” quote that says, “- places protesters identified as predominantly “white spaces”. It came from the OP and linked article. It describes conduct that is neither harassment, nor abuse. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - Again, the “article in the OP” says that people “disrupted” meals at popular midtown eateries". Disrupting my eggs benedict IS harassment and abuse. Take your (not you) racist, horseshit, advertising some place else. Well, there you go. I guess these things are, to some degree, subjective, but having a list of names read at me sure doesn’t fall under “to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way”, i.e. abuse. Perhaps I’m made of sterner stuff than most. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - I assume you posted the wrong link. Those are activists in the same movement, spreading their message in public, just like you requested they do. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - Really? I’m trying to come off as someone who doesn’t want to be harassed by roving bands of racist protesters. You’ve made that clear. If that’s what was happening, you’d be on to something. You happen to very sensitive to any disruption of your brunch? Fair enough. But that doesn’t make it “harassment”. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - Yes, it is harassment. You agree that the protesters targeted white people. Just like [blackpeoplemeet.com](http://blackpeoplemeet.com) does. Targeting people based on race doesn’t make any and all subsequent conduct harassment. What makes conduct harassment, is that it’s harassing: to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute. Note that, by definition, harassment must be persistent or continuous… > [@doorhinge](#): > > - No, I do not agree that any political change these protests bring about will depend on the actions of affluent white people, or they won’t happen. I keep forgetting about our majority-black, majority-poor government. You got me there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/188 "2015-01-16T02:57:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, they are. They are promoting an idea. No, they aren’t selling a product, but they are marketing something. That’s all protests are: marketing campaigns. You consider it a marketing campaign. I call it harassment based on the color of my skin. These targeted patrons, staff, and restaurants were selected based on the color of their skin. I’ll have no problem calling the police to have racist protesters escorted from my building, my restaurant, and my home. And I want them as far away as possible from my eggs benedict. I believe these racist protesters should add a description of the specific circumstances surrounding the deaths of those listed. I prefer to read history books that provide details. Reading a list of Civil War Generals is boring. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/189 "2015-01-16T03:05:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You consider it a marketing campaign. I call it harassment based on the color of my skin. These targeted patrons, staff, and restaurants were selected based on the color of their skin. I’ll have no problem calling the police to have racist protesters escorted from my building, my restaurant, and my home. And I want them as far away as possible from my eggs benedict. Question: do you believe the protesters’ goal was to bring attention to their cause, or to cause suffering and discomfort among white people? > [@doorhinge](#): > > I believe these racist protesters should add a description of the specific circumstances surrounding the deaths of those listed. I prefer to read history books that provide details. Reading a list of Civil War Generals is boring. You’ve made it clear that you don’t want them protesting indoors at all, so the content is secondary at best. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/190 "2015-01-16T03:33:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s not based on race as race, though. It wasn’t directed at white people because this protest group (which isn’t all-black, for whatever that’s worth) considers whites to be inferior, or inherently different in any way from anyone else. It’s because white people hold most of the power in American society. That’s just an objective fact, not a racist belief. Did the protesters choose harassment targets based on race? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/191 "2015-01-16T03:35:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Question: do you believe the protesters’ goal was to bring attention to their cause, or to cause suffering and discomfort among white people? > > You’ve made it clear that you don’t want them protesting indoors at all, so the content is secondary at best. - I believe the racist protesters goal was to bring attention to their cause **BY** causing suffering and discomfort to white people and only white people. The racist protesters selected their targets based on the color of their targets skin. - And you’d be wrong. I did not say that I do not want the racist protesters protesting indoors. The racist protesters could have protested indoors at City Hall, Tammany Hall, Daryl Hall, or John Oats basement. As long as it was a public space, or they had been invited in and the audience had been warned in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/192 "2015-01-16T03:35:03Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Did the protesters choose harassment targets based on race? They didn’t choose harassment targets, period. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/193 "2015-01-16T03:39:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > - I believe the racist protesters goal was to bring attention to their cause **BY** causing suffering and discomfort to white people and only white people. The racist protesters selected their targets based on the color of their targets skin. There it is, then. You see them as tormenting whitey, I see them as a misguided but sincere effort to raise awareness of an important issue among people who otherwise might not know or care about it. I can’t force you to see things my way, and it’s come down to the subjective judgment of protest vs. harassment, so I think we’ve run our course here. > [@doorhinge](#): > > - And you’d be wrong. I did not say that I do not want the racist protesters protesting indoors. The racist protesters could have protested indoors at City Hall, Tammany Hall, Daryl Hall, or John Oats basement. As long as it was a public space, or they had been invited in and the audience had been warned in advance. Fair enough. In either case, your criticism of the message is secondary to your criticism of the methods, no? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/194 "2015-01-16T03:44:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They didn’t choose harassment targets, period. And you’d be wrong. Again. The protesters wanted to read their list of dead black people. The racist protesters chose to target “white spaces” in order to harass white people. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/195 "2015-01-16T12:29:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > And you’d be wrong. Again. > > The protesters wanted to read their list of dead black people. > > The racist protesters chose to target “white spaces” in order to harass white people. I don’t know how else to say it: _that’s not harassment._ You’ve declared it so, using your own personal definition, but that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/196 "2015-01-16T13:14:15Z")
Why do **you** get to decide if **I** feel I’m being harassed? Who died and made you _Chief Harassment Decider_? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/197 "2015-01-16T13:24:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know how else to say it: _that’s not harassment._ You’ve declared it so, using your own personal definition, but that’s all. I don’t know how else to say it: _that is harassment_. You’ve decided that A) I’m not being harassed based on your own personal definition and B) it doesn’t matter if I was chosen as a victim only because of the color of my skin. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/198 "2015-01-16T13:24:19Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Why do **you** get to decide if **I** feel I’m being harassed? Who died and made you _Chief Harassment Decider_? If **doorhinge** had been there, and said “I felt I was being harassed”, I’d have no objection. Instead, he’s reading an account of what happened, and declaring the conduct to be harassment. Those are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/199 "2015-01-16T13:31:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I don’t know how else to say it: _that is harassment_. You’ve decided that A) I’m not being harassed based on your own personal definition… No, the actual definition, which I have provided, and which a one-time reading to a room full of people does not meet. > [@doorhinge](#): > > …and B) it doesn’t matter if I was chosen as a victim only because of the color of my skin. Correct. You get targeted for messages every day of your life that are tailored to specific races, genders, religions, income levels, educational levels, and countless other variables. These aspects of your identity are part of how other people perceive and engage with you. That’s how our brains work, that’s how marketing works, that’s how society works. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/200 "2015-01-16T13:49:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If **doorhinge** had been there, and said “I felt I was being harassed”, I’d have no objection. Instead, he’s reading an account of what happened, and declaring the conduct to be harassment. Those are two different things. So you were there and determined nobody felt they were being harassed? No? You just read an account of what happened and are declaring the conduct **not** to be harassment? So your position vis-à-vis harassment has the same basis as **doorhinge** ’s, isn’t that true? (I’d like my scrambled eggs with bacon, hash browns, rye toast and no side of protesters) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038.md?page=11)