# "Black Brunch" protesting in "white spaces" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038 "2015-01-05T14:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/81 "2015-01-06T15:46:01Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > But if they haven’t heard of McCartney and Michael Brown, how are they going to hear about the brunch protests? I still haven’t heard of them outside of this board, and I read the news daily. … by eating brunch. Or more likely, by being Facebook friends with people who brunch. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/82 "2015-01-06T15:50:36Z")
Everyone has a cause _they_ think is super-important, that you just need to know about, and so any amount of absurdity or inconvenience to bystanders is acceptable (because the cause is just that important). In many cases they are right and their cause _is_ important. Violence against women. The environment. The sad fate of Tibet. The even sadder fate of the poor of Africa. Police violence. In others, the cause is only important if you happen to believe in the premises: like the existence of God. Surely God’s commands are more important than any merely human problems or concerns - if one exists. Having a healthy marketplace of ideas where all this is thrashed out is important, but then, there are limits. To my mind, a limit is reached when, instead of acting to attempt to educate, the real intent is to troll what the advocates assume are ‘the enemy’ among the public. The example that springs to mind is the difference between a god-botherer going door to door to spread the ‘good news’ (annoying but acceptable) and the Phelps gang ‘protesting’ at funerals of soldiers (annoying and unacceptable). Why is what Phelps does worse? Well, remove the nastiness of his message, and what you are left with is that he is not really attempting to convince or convert the folks at the funeral - he is deliberately trolling or annoying them, purely for publicity that will (presumably) play well with people who are _not_ at the funeral. While the cause of these brunch-disrupters is infinitely better than Phelps’, and the trolling nowhere near as harsh, they do have this in common: it is obvious to reasonable people that their point is not to convince or convert the people brunching, but to make a point about invading ‘White Spaces’ that will (presumably) play well to people who are _not_ brunching. They are in effect casting the “brunchers” as enemies to be trolled for publicity. Their ‘enemy status’ may in fact not be true (the “brunchers” may well be liberal Whites who are not the “enemy”, or in fact Black themselves), but that is irrelevant - the point is to be seen trolling ‘the enemy’ symbolically. This is what makes them annoying, if you happen to be a “bruncher” youself. You are being cast in a publicity play by these people in a way that is invidious and regardless of your actual beliefs, not being offered a chance for information or conversion. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/83 "2015-01-06T15:54:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Do you think ANYONE who heard about protestors interrupting that 100 year old man’s medal ceremony came away thinking, “You know, those protestors really had a point”? Yeah. The “media loves this shit” works both ways. The medal-ceremony interruption pissed off far more people than were there. Some of those people were, or would have been, sympathetic to the “black lives matter” banner otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/84 "2015-01-06T15:55:31Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So, if the pro-lifers I mentioned came away saying, “Sure we annoyed a few hundred people who had nothing to do with abortion, but at least we got our message out, and media coverage will be valuable.” would you concede that their tactics were successsful? Well, they face a different problem, of course. If we imagine that their problem is apathy or ignorance among a big part of the population who is unaffected by reproductive rights policies, and further assume that when this apathetic/ignorant population is exposed to media information about the issue that they are more likely to support the pro-lifers, then I would agree that their tactics were successful. > [@astorian](#): > > Do you think ANYONE who heard about protestors interrupting that 100 year old man’s medal ceremony came away thinking, “You know, those protestors really had a point”? The way people process information is complicated. Some people will read that story and the salient part will be Ron Wyden honoring a military vet. Some people will read it and the salient part will be the veteran’s relative calm and the crowd’s support for him. Some people will read it and be upset that the ceremony was interrupted. Some of that will depend on where they encounter the story. The Fox News version emphasized and omits some things as compared to other versions, for example. But some fraction of them will hear about an issue that’s maybe been on the periphery of their knowledge, and a take a moment or two to figure out what it’s all about. Or if they’re reading a decent news source, learn something about it when they read the article. That’s the aim. (Or at least, that’s the defensible aim that I can see. I suspect the real motivations of some of these protestors are less strategic.) ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/85 "2015-01-06T16:27:26Z")
While that’s a fine analysis, I think the calculus tips way against the protesters. Sure there will be many eyes reading news about events, but I conjecture most will find it gauche. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/86 "2015-01-06T16:33:37Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > At the same time, the inconvenience of having to live in a country that supports pluralism and tolerates dissent and even people I disagree with, is not an inconvenience I’d ever want to go without. > > Yeah, it is a bother when people protest things that you don’t care about, or don’t support. Sometimes it’s a bother when they’re protesting things that you do support. The bother is actually kind of equal, in that regard. > … > > This is all part of living in a society where people are allowed to share what is important to them, and yes, it is extremely annoying. You are allowed to share your views, but you are not allowed to disrupt me and force me to listen to them. Or even worse, create safety issues by disrupting major transportation infrastructure. > [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > Suck it up. What’s worse is losing a family member to a police shooting where your family member was unarmed and nonviolent. Disturbing me while I’m enjoying my smoked salmon benedict and Bloody Mary. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/87 "2015-01-06T16:37:21Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > While that’s a fine analysis, I think the calculus tips way against the protesters. Sure there will be many eyes reading news about events, but I conjecture most will find it gauche. Yes. Lest anyone get the wrong impression, I think this is a bad idea. As I mentioned in the IMHO thread, it’s inappropriate to protest in a restaurant unless you are protesting the restaurant itself. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/88 "2015-01-06T16:51:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > While that’s a fine analysis, I think the calculus tips way against the protesters. Sure there will be many eyes reading news about events, but I conjecture most will find it gauche. The people we’re really talking about here are those whose opinion or behavior on the subject might be swayed either by these gauche tactics or by the media coverage they create–which is probably a significant minority of people encountering this story. So consider the impact of an article about brunch interruption that also mentions that body cameras have been shown to reduce police misconduct. Reading this article might make them less favorable to introduction of body cameras because of the gauche tactics of the protestors. It might make them more favorable because most people like reducing police misconduct in ways that don’t threaten the safety of police. And it might cause them to favor body cameras while finding the protests gauche. My conjecture is that the last outcome there is far and away the most likely. Of course, not every successful tactic of ethically warranted. I’m not saying it’s OK or not OK to interrupt people’s brunches. I’m just arguing that it isn’t as obviously counter-productive as some seem to thin. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/89 "2015-01-06T17:14:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You are allowed to share your views, but you are not allowed to disrupt me and force me to listen to them. Or even worse, create safety issues by disrupting major transportation infrastructure. “Allowed” to? Sure I am. The restaurant can kick me out. The cops can arrest me. Or, I dunno, turn out the dogs and firehoses. But you are not exempt from being disturbed. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/90 "2015-01-06T17:39:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … by eating brunch. Or more likely, by being Facebook friends with people who brunch. Wooo, the brunch demographic. I’m pretty socially mobile, and I’ve known exactly two people who have gone to brunch. Not really a large, influential demographic who would be receptive to a disruptive protest. I’m thinking the protesters’ influence is probably a net negative. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/91 "2015-01-06T18:07:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Well, they face a different problem, of course. If we imagine that their problem is apathy or ignorance among a big part of the population who is unaffected by reproductive rights policies, and further assume that when this apathetic/ignorant population is exposed to media information about the issue that they are more likely to support the pro-lifers, then I would agree that their tactics were successful. This comes across to me as “it’s ok to protest things I agree with but not things I don’t”. I’m sure that’s not your intent and I know you’re not saying that it should be illegal for abortion protesters to interrupt brunch. > [@scabpicker](#): > > Wooo, the brunch demographic. I’m pretty socially mobile, and I’ve known exactly two people who have gone to brunch. Not really a large, influential demographic who would be receptive to a disruptive protest. I’m thinking the protesters’ influence is probably a net negative. Dude, why the hate for brunch?!? I love brunch. I get to sleep in late and still go out and get breakfast food. One of my goals in life is to eat as much French toast as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/92 "2015-01-06T18:50:41Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > **doorhinge** , that was one ugly post. What makes you assume protestors are dirty, other than a desire to distance yourself from them? The Pit is the right place to discuss **doorhinge** ’s beliefs. In Houston, people out for a nice brunch would probably include some African-Americans. Generally better-dressed than the whites. The main problem with this protest: Private property. The restaurant owners would have the right to have the protesters ejected or arrested. Find another public area to protest than your own neighborhood? Fine. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/93 "2015-01-06T18:51:50Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Wooo, the brunch demographic. I’m pretty socially mobile, and I’ve known exactly two people who have gone to brunch. Not really a large, influential demographic who would be receptive to a disruptive protest. I’m thinking the protesters’ influence is probably a net negative. How old are you? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/94 "2015-01-06T21:43:26Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The main problem with this protest: Private property. The restaurant owners would have the right to have the protesters ejected or arrested. > > Find another public area to protest than your own neighborhood? Fine. “Fine” either way. No one involved in these protests believes themselves exempt from ejection or even arrest. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/95 "2015-01-06T22:13:38Z")
> [@andros](#): > > “Allowed” to? Sure I am. The restaurant can kick me out. The cops can arrest me. Or, I dunno, turn out the dogs and firehoses. > > But you are not exempt from being disturbed. No, you’re not “allowed to”. That assumes you were given permission by someone in authority or the owner. Which these racist protesters did not have. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/96 "2015-01-06T22:48:55Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > …I don’t know why you are lobbing accusations of racism at me. That people are identified as Black or White (or neither, rarely both) in contemporary America is a fact. Racism is a problem that disproportionately affects black people. Blacks are an ethnic group as well as a racial one; I’m not going to deny a people’s existence because my culture’s systemic oppression of their makes me feel guilty. I do think they should be calling us out on our tacit acceptance of the status quo. > > In short, I’m not sure what position you expect me to take that you wouldn’t consider racist. Protests are disruptive; that’s the whole point. You don’t like them? That’s no reason to slander the protestors with ad hominem attacks (“dirty”), nor me (just-shy-of “racist”). (post shortened) Which of these so-called “white spaces” refuses service to black people? Which ones refuse to hire black people? Their doors are open to anyone who wishes eat there. These are not racist spaces. These are not “white spaces”. These are not black spaces. Everyone is welcome. Unless, of course, they act like assholes and disturb the patrons and staff. It is the arrogance of these racist protesters who decided that these “open to the public” spaces somehow qualified as “white spaces”. The racist protesters could have sat at a table and ordered a meal in these same “white spaces” and no one would have objected or cared. These racist protester can protest somewhere else. I don’t care what position you take on an open forum. If you feel guilty for treating people badly, well, maybe you should. But if you feel guilty for treating people badly when you, in fact, have not treated people badly, maybe you should talk to a professional about it. just sayin ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/97 "2015-01-06T23:16:00Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > These are not racist spaces. These are not “white spaces”. These are not black spaces. Everyone is welcome. Unless, of course, they act like assholes and disturb the patrons and staff. > > It is the arrogance of these racist protesters who decided that these “open to the public” spaces somehow qualified as “white spaces”. The racist protesters could have sat at a table and ordered a meal in these same “white spaces” and no one would have objected or cared. Well now, strictly speaking I don’t think we know all _that_. Some restaurants are _not_ hospitable to black patrons. (Being a white person who sometimes has a black date is a very telling ‘test,’ let me tell you.) ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/98 "2015-01-06T23:32:41Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Well now, strictly speaking I don’t think we know all _that_. Some restaurants are _not_ hospitable to black patrons. (Being a white person who sometimes has a black date is a very telling ‘test,’ let me tell you.) Because it couldn’t possibly be you that the waitstaff objects to? OTOH, I have heard waitresses say that white people tip better than black people. Who picks up the cheque when you’re out-and-about, you or your date? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/99 "2015-01-06T23:36:31Z")
If it’s him the wait staff objects to, then presumably they treat him the same way whether his date is white or black. I think he’s saying they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038/100 "2015-01-06T23:39:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Because it couldn’t possibly be you that the waitstaff objects to? > > OTOH, I have heard waitresses say that white people tip better than black people. Who picks up the cheque when you’re out-and-about, you or your date? Whatever great wisdom about black people have you heard from random people? Maybe something about how they smell? Maybe something about their pants? Please, enlighten us with more “random people said this about black people” wisdom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-brunch-protesting-in-white-spaces/709038.md?page=6)