# Black eye prompts allegations of organized fights at 4-H camp **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105 "2003-07-08T22:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FairyDust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@FairyDust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyDust)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/1 "2003-07-08T22:20:21Z")
If this is true, I wonder what on earth made the counselors think [this](http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/nation/story/937931p-6547169c.html) would be a good idea. Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/2 "2003-07-09T06:46:07Z")
“The _first_ rule of 4-H camp is…” ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/3 "2003-07-09T06:56:27Z")
Man, my 4-H camp _sucked_! Thinking about kids who were in 4-H with me, though, it wouldn’t be much of a tournament. 4-H Kumite is probably right up there with FFA Battledome. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/4 "2003-07-09T07:38:36Z")
Well, after all – two of the _h_’s stand for hands and head. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/5 "2003-07-09T14:59:31Z")
I just read this story and thought I would seek it out. I went to a (non 4H) camp called Mountain Lake nearly twenty years ago. It was worse, far worse, than the camp cited in the story linked in the OP. I have often thought of writing a memoir based on just my two weeks at that camp. BTW I was twelve years old at the time. To explain all the incidents I would need about five pages. I will however highlight: 1. I was very nearly shot by a counselor. Close enough that I felt the bullet whip through my hair. 2. A number of kids were beaten regularly by both counselors and other kids. 3. I was abandoned on a mountaintop during a hike. I had to hitchhike back down the mountain with some hunters. I sat with the dead deer in the pickup truck bed. 4. Counselors stole and extorted money. They also withheld food. I will never forget that a cold Coke cost four dollars. 5. A kid was tied to his cot and pushed into the river in the middle of the night. It is a miracle he didn’t drown. He did swallow a lot of water. 6. I was caught in the crossfire of a vicious fight invovling the throwing of D batteries. Lip was lacerated, black eye. Jeez I am getting depressed writing this. I am always so jealous of people who loved going to camp. Until this story I thought that included everyone but me. ---
**Author:** ![cole\_burner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@cole\_burner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cole_burner)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/6 "2003-07-09T16:05:03Z")
No excusing counselors that beat up kids, extorted money, etc, and no offense to you, but this kind of thing happened (being bullied) to a particular kind of kid, didn’t it? I mean, a kid who didn’t get bullied at school wouldn’t get bullied at camp, or am I wrong? I think there is something about some kids that made them targets for bullies, some phereome or attitude or whatever. And we should work on stopping bullies, yes, but also work on teaching kids not to make themselves targets too. Just IMO. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/7 "2003-07-09T16:19:59Z")
I realize that I’m extra testy this morning but this has to be one of the stupidest statements I’ve realized recently: > [@](#): > > I think there is something about some kids that made them targets for bullies, some phereome or attitude or whatever. And we should work on stopping bullies, yes, but also work on teaching kids not to make themselves targets too. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/8 "2003-07-09T17:21:16Z")
\*\* cole burner \*\* Your post may have contained a grain of truth if what I had described was bullying. Read again and realize I am not exaggerating in the slightest. That camp was a reign of terror. It was a miracle that a couple of broken limbs and a near drowning were the most serious injuries. Nearly everyone was beaten, either by counselors or other kids. The shooting was accidental, kind of, the rifle wouldn’t go off when we were shooting at targets. The counselor’s solution was to bang the butt on the ground with the barrell pointing towards my head. Needless to say it went off. In the case of minor bullying the bullied are not at fault. It could be helpful if the bullied were given ways of dealing with bullying. The suggestion that it is their fault is absurd though. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/9 "2003-07-09T17:52:26Z")
At least it wasn’t 4-H Gymkata. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/10 "2003-07-09T18:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darth Nader \* > \*\*“The _first_ rule of 4-H camp is…” \*\* And Ludovic wins with the “1” guess in the “how many posts until a Fight Club reference” poll! (Yeah, first thing I thought of too) ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/11 "2003-07-09T18:47:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darth Nader \* > \*\*“The _first_ rule of 4-H camp is…” \*\* Bwahaha! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/12 "2003-07-09T20:54:03Z")
"Thinking about kids who were in 4-H with me, though, it wouldn’t be much of a tournament. 4-H Kumite is probably right up there with FFA Battledome. " I was always partial to YMCA Camp Thunderdome. fruitbat > [@](#): > > It could be helpful if the bullied were given ways of dealing with bullying. They are…it’s called “kicking a motherfuckers ass” and “not being a pussy”. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/13 "2003-07-09T21:12:10Z")
I was a live-in Nanny for an extremely dysfunctional family once upon a time. The idiot dad believed that his three sons should resolve their issues by duking it out. Wanted them to grow up capable of > [@](#): > > “kicking a motherfuckers ass” and “not being a pussy” Problem was, the boys varied in age from a skinny 6 year old to a very stout 12 year old. Can you guess which one ended up getting his ass kicked every time? :rolleyes: I knew you could. ---
**Author:** ![snac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@snac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snac)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/14 "2003-07-09T23:07:23Z")
Yes, msmith537, learning how to kick a motherfucker’s ass is absolutely the way to go. Especially if there are six motherfuckers with asses to kick, and only one person being bullied. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/15 "2003-07-09T23:21:33Z")
Lovely **msmith537** you flaming assmonkey. I can say for all those that suffered at the hands of bullying that had you been there to give us your sage advice there never would have been a problem. Clearly you have a future with the UN. Please hurry away your new career is waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/16 "2003-07-10T07:57:11Z")
Not much to say about the OP, clearly it sux0rs big time. It has not been said enough yet that **cole burner** and **msmith537** are fucking idiots though. ---
**Author:** ![Miabella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@Miabella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miabella)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/17 "2003-07-10T18:52:09Z")
Excuse me, **cole burner** and **msmith537** , but I think you’ve got something stuck up your ass. I can’t believe that you nimrods would actually BLAME THE VICTIM in bullying cases. Have you ever been bullied on an ongoing basis? Do you know the overwhelming shame and helplessness that goes along with it? Do you realize that in most cases, however the victim reacts, the bully and his/her ubiquitous gang of toadies will find some way to use it against you? Also, do you really think that the victim isn’t going to get in deep shit for hitting someone else? The teachers/counselors/etc. NEVER know what’s going on, they are just going to blame it on whoever threw the first punch. So fuck you both. Go to hell and burn in black fire for all eternity. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/18 "2003-07-10T19:38:29Z")
The bully is never right. There is nothing that a child can do that deserves punishment by bullying. No amount of being smarter, or smaller, or less popular, or less violent, or less capable of fighting back, or different _in any way_ justifies being abused. No child should ever be required to use violence to defend herself. ---
**Author:** ![FairyDust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@FairyDust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyDust)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/19 "2003-07-10T21:21:22Z")
I did a Google search on bullying and found a page which in turn led me to [this](http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/bullycid.htm). Wow. > [@](#): > > Every year in the UK… > > over 19,000 children attempt suicide - one every half hour > there are over 2 million visits by children to GPs for emotional and psychological problems > suicide is now the Number One cause of death for 18-24-year-old males And that’s just in the UK. Doesn’t include the numbers in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105/20 "2003-07-10T23:27:24Z")
so…your response to someone saying something you don’t agree with is namecalling and verbal bullying? Oh sweet irony! "Especially if there are six motherfuckers with asses to kick, and only one person being bullied. " So get some friends. Bullies are less likely to go after groups of people. Besides, haven’t you ever seen the class victim ever “snap” and give a bully a schoolyard beating? Bullies, especially chronies aren’t looking for a fight, they are looking for someone they can beat with impunity. “I can’t believe that you nimrods would actually BLAME THE VICTIM in bullying cases.” “Blame” little to do with it. There will always be people who pick on others and intimidate to get their way. There does seem to be some sort of complex interaction between the chronic bully/victim relationship that I don’t really get. Why does one kid end up the class bullymagnet while another doesn’t? How does one kid end up as such a pariah that his name is synonomous with “loser”? “Also, do you really think that the victim isn’t going to get in deep shit for hitting someone else? The teachers/counselors/etc. NEVER know what’s going on, they are just going to blame it on whoever threw the first punch.” Who cares? I was always taught that no matter what the school said, I would never be punished for defending myself so long as I didn’t start it. “Have you ever been bullied on an ongoing basis? Do you know the overwhelming shame and helplessness that goes along with it?” Not onging. I don’t like to be bullied or feel helpless. If I was getting bullied on a daily basis, I would freaking lift weights and learn Brazilian kickboxing or some shit and go kick the guys ass. Seriously, what else do you do? Do you allow yourself to be victimized because you can’t find someone to protect you? “No child should ever be required to use violence to defend herself.” “Should” has nothing to do with it. There will not always be a parent, teacher or cop around. You can’t always have someone around to protect you. I guess crying and whining will drive the evil bullies away! It must be horrible to go through life knowing that you are subject to the whim of anyone more assertive than you. That is the harsh reality of life. When someone confronts you, you can try and work it out, you can run away, or if all else fails, unleash the fury. So…all of you bitches who are so quick to name call. Some guy comes up and starts with you. What’s your profound advice? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-eye-prompts-allegations-of-organized-fights-at-4-h-camp/187105.md?page=2)