# Black Hip-hoppers and the Confederate Flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 21, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087 "2001-05-21T14:12:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/1 "2001-05-21T14:12:04Z")
(Hey, it’s been at least two days since the last “Confederate flag” thread, so I figured…) The Atlanta Constitution has an article today on the latest CD from local hip-hop group **Lil Jon & the East Dise Boyz**. The cover of the CD (title: “Put Yo Hood Up”) features a picture of Lil Jon, draped in a Confederate flag, and flanked by the East Side Boyz. In the background, two more Confederate flags “smolder in menacing defiance” as the Atlanta Constitution article put it. (Sorry. I’ve had no luck finding a picture of the CD on the Net.) Why did Lil Jon (who is black) choose to use the Confederate flag on the cover? Well, first of all to get publicity, I’m sure, but secondly, as he puts it: > [@](#): > > I’m from the South. That’s what it represents to me…We’re Southern-born and raised. The flag is part of us. We look at it as just being proud to say we’re from the South. Now I know it complicates matters for non-Southerners to learn that not all blacks see the flag as a symbol of racism and oppression, but there it is. For all of those posters who think Southerners are lying when they say that they mean only to convey Southern pride and not racism by displaying the flag, please explain how the above comments fit your theory. (For the record, I will restate my own views. I think the flag is intended by most who display it to convey Southern pride and not racism. On the other hand, I certainly understand why someone might not understand that intent, and might take offense. I would not display the flag myself out of respect for and courtesy toward those who find it offensive.) I’ve been saying for some time now that maybe the best solution for the Confederate flag controversy would be for black kids to co-opt the flag and make it their own. Maybe that’s part of what’s happening here. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/2 "2001-05-21T14:13:51Z")
Oops. I had a little bout of dyslexia there. That should be **Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz**. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/3 "2001-05-21T18:48:38Z")
spoke- Wow. A Southern black rap group openly embracing the Confederate flag?? Wow. That’s like a… a… [rapper on the cover of Rolling Stone in a policeman’s uniform after making millions rapping about “Cop Killer.”](http://content.rollingstone.com/content/808/images/23068.jpg) But that’s crazy talk! This is either a radical political/artistic/visionary departure from the group that brought us last year’s album, “We Still Crunk!!!” – with the hit track, “I Like Dem Girlz” – or it’s a misguided publicity ploy, given all the attention given to alter the Georgia flag in the past six months. I’d say ‘ploy.’ CD sales will tell me how misguided it was. You usually co-opt a negative term/image and reclaim it as your own, (i.e. Aunt Jemima, “nigger”, “Pimps”) – not someone else’s racist iconography directed at you. That’s like Orthodox Jews sporting swastikas. Anything you gain in irony you lose displaying such willful disrespect for the past. “Bia Bia” is awful catchy, tho. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/4 "2001-05-21T19:54:04Z")
Why does my inner cynic think that if southern black people suddenly embrace the Stars and Bars as a symbol of pride, state legislatures across the south will suddenly decide it’s prudent to bring down the flags? Nice move, Lil Jon. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/5 "2001-05-21T21:04:38Z")
Huh. So you think even Lil Jon is lying about his intent in displaying the flag, **Sofa King**? Man, you are cynical. I’m all for southern Black kids co-opting/de-mystifying the Confederate flag. Then maybe the flag will lose its charm to racists, and be displayed only by those who intend it (as Lil Jon says he does) as a symbol of Southern pride. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/6 "2001-05-21T22:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > For all of those posters who think Southerners are lying when they say that they mean only to convey Southern pride and not racism by displaying the flag, please explain how the above comments fit your theory. Two answers. First, coopting a symbol is not quite the same thing as adopting it. The Confederate flag has a much different message in the hands of a black rapper than in the hands of a Klan member. Second, I have no doubt that for _some_ Southerners, the flag symbolizes nothing more than vague notions of romanticized bulls . . . er, “heritage.” But for _most_ people who actively display and support the flag, it is clearly also a symbol of racial hatred. Besides, even Patty Hearst ended up robbing banks, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/7 "2001-05-22T01:22:57Z")
This just in. In addition to the Confederate flag being displayed on his group’s newest CD album cover, “Put Your Hood Up”, Lil’ Jon announced his intention to ‘demystify’ other distasteful controversial Southern icons with racially charged overtones as well. Next up: [the lawn jockey.](http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/Sambo_Savages/11.jpg) “I’m from the South. Lawn jockeys are a symbol of my southern heritage. That’s what it represents to me… We’re Southern-born and raised. That little statue is part of us. We look at it as just being proud to say we’re from the South. Black people love lawn jockeys. Dey oh-tay!” Critics openly dismissed the use of such images as the ill-thought out publicity-hungry rantings of a mediocre hip-hop crew desperate to stand out against the glut of Southern-based hip-hop boy bands and wondered aloud if such creativity might not be better spent in, say, improving their lyrics, better honing their message or improving production values. But the group clearly has other ideas. “Big butt bitches doin’ the Bankhead Bounce and controversy! That’s what sells,” countered Lil’. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/8 "2001-05-22T05:00:42Z")
Who cares what **Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz** think? African Americans are not a monolithic group. There is bound to be some dissent, just like in any group. I’m sure out there are at least a couple Jewish people that dig the Nazis. There is bound to be a few freak rich businessmen that are commies. Heck, I now quite a few feminists and gay people that are down with Eminem. Now, can we conclude that the swastika is really okay, or that communism must be the way to go because so and so is rich and he still likes it, or that Eminem isn’t a pretty damn offensive guy? Nope, we can prove nothing of the sort. Just because a couple of publicity hungry people defy our expectations of them doesn’t mean that the whole debate is changed. Even if their sentiments are true (which is doubtful) **Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz** are not representative of any great truths. I am sure that they don’t represent the majority opinion. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/9 "2001-05-22T12:10:22Z")
My family moved back to Virginia about a year ago. One of the first things I noticed was a young black guy driving around in a car with a Confederate flag bumper sticker. My first thought was that he bought the car used and just hadn’t gotten around to removing the sticker. However, I’ve seen at least 5 more instances of this since then – each time a different car and a different dude, but all of them with the Confederate flag bumper sticker. One guy also had a “Southern Pride” bumper sticker. Most of these fellows were college age – although one looked 30ish. BTW, when we lived here before (from 1986-1992) I don’t remember ever seeing this. So I’m leaning towards the co-opting thing. Either that or the folks insisting that displaying the Confederate flag was a Southern-thing not a Racist-thing forgot to send out a memo to black folk saying, “This doesn’t apply to you.” BTW, I’ve also seen a car with a number of Pagan bumper stickers _and_ a Confederate flag sticker. Seemed odd to me… However, I’m a California girl and I’m not at all sure I fully understand (or will ever fully understand) the Southern mind. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/10 "2001-05-22T12:45:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jess \* > \*\* > BTW, I’ve also seen a car with a number of Pagan bumper stickers _and_ a Confederate flag sticker. Seemed odd to me… However, I’m a California girl and I’m not at all sure I fully understand (or will ever fully understand) the Southern mind. \*\* That one was probably mine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/11 "2001-05-22T18:43:24Z")
> [@](#): > > BTW, I’ve also seen a car with a number of Pagan bumper stickers and a Confederate flag sticker. Seemed odd to me… However, I’m a California girl and I’m not at all sure I fully understand (or will ever fully understand) the Southern mind. Yeah we Southerners are hard to pin down. Take me for instance. I’m a liberal-to-moderate Democrat, with not a racist bone in my body, yet I have a soft spot for the Confederate flag. Not the combination of beliefs you might expect. But then, we Southerners aren’t a monolithic group, either. Hey **Askia J. Hale** , right back at you: NAACP memo to Lil Jon- “Hey, where are you going with our axe? We weren’t through grinding it yet!” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/12 "2001-05-22T18:57:03Z")
**Askia K. Hale** I meant. Sorry 'bout that. (Man, I really need some sleep.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/13 "2001-05-23T13:37:02Z")
[Here is a link](http://www.vibe.com/new/vibewire/20010420/news05.html) to a review of the CD, in which Lil Jon expands on his reasons for using Confederate flag imagery. (The link also has some of the images from the CD cover, BTW.) Sayeth Lil Jon: > [@](#): > > As a Southern group, we chose to bring the issue to the forefront in our album packaging. We’re basically mocking racist on one hand by wearing The Confederate Flag, but at the same time we’re repping the South. Do you know how infuriating it will be for a redneck to see me, a black deadlocked rapper, wearing The Confederate Flag around my shoulders? It’s almost as bad as me dating his daughter. The Confederate Flag ain’t going nowhere. It’s part of Southern life and a reality of where we’re from. Getting rid of the flag will not get rid of racism. Our album cover was our way of burning The Confederate Flag and all the racist mentality that comes with it; but we’re also wearing it to show our love for The South. Huh? And then he also says: > [@](#): > > The flag is a symbol and people attach their own meaning to it. To me The Confederate Flag is just that, a flag. We grew up seeing that flag everywhere. It’s more offensive to the older Southern black folks who understand first-hand what the flag symbolizes, but I don’t think younger folks view the flag in the same way. Granted, his message is not a model of clarity, but it sounds like he is trying to co-opt the flag, destroy its value as a racist emblem, and turn it into a generic symbol to “rep” the South. If so, more power to him. Lil Bo (one of the East Side Boyz) added his take: > [@](#): > > Being born in the South, the flag has a different meaning for me than it would to people who aren’t Southern. On one hand, I know a lot of lives were lost on both sides over it, but on the other it’s a symbol of racial hatred that Black people in the South want to forget. It depends on which side of the line you’re on. Hmmm. Well that sure cleared things up. Obviously, on the most fundamental level, it’s a publicity stunt. Even so, the remarks of Lil Jon seem to confirm that he genuinely views the flag (at least in part) as a symbol of Southern pride. Which brings us back to my original point: It is possible to display the flag as a symbol of pride of place, without racist intent. Contrary to **minty green** ’s view, my experiences lead me to believe that pride of place, and not racism, is the reason that most display the flag. In other words, I think you should take the “heritage not hate” crowd at their word. For the most part, they really don’t intend to convey racist sentiment. There are of course exceptions, and it sounds as if, for those who want to use the flag as a racist banner, Lil Jon is trying to take away their toy. I’m all for it. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/14 "2001-05-23T14:08:14Z")
spoke-, if you are trying to use Lil Jon and his quotes to show that Black Southerners see the Confederate flag as anything but racist, you have not done a good job. He is very explicit about the flag being a racist icon. Not that I’m saying there are no black southerners who feel that the Confederate flag is a symbol of hometown pride and not hometown racism. It’s just that this album cover is not an example of this. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/15 "2001-05-23T14:28:32Z")
Note also the fabulous title: _Put Yo Hood Up_. Several obvious meanings, and a triple play on the word “hood” (car bonnet, community, Klansman’s). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/16 "2001-05-23T16:09:07Z")
**Biggirl** : Not quite. As I read Lil Jon’s comments, he recognizes the duality of the symbol. Obviously, for some, it does represent racism. For others (including, apparently, Lil Jon) it also represents pride of place. ("[W]e’re also wearing it to show our love for The South.") All I’m sayng is that we need to acknowledge that not everyone who flies the flag has racist intent. And I would argue that a clear majority of those who fly the flag do not have racist intent. Now because of its past use as a racist symbol, and because it causes offense to some, I would agree that the flag is inappropriate on a state flag, or flying above a state capitol. But let’s at least acknowledge that not all those who fly the flag are raving racist loonies. Or even racist at all. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/17 "2001-05-23T17:34:00Z")
My interpretation is that Lil Jon is _reassigning_ the meaning of the flag, which is quite different from expressing a duality of meaning. I did not join the other “flag” debate because it seemed pretty fruitless. Those who refuse to see that the flag is an icon of a racist past and who think of it as a symbol of pride (Pride in what? Losing a war? Rallying around the tenent that all states should hold slaves if they feel like it? Dying for the cause of enslaving others as a basic right?-- but I digress) will continue to think of it as a symbol of pride no matter what anyone else says, feels or thinks. Anyone who can read the words: \*We’re basically mocking racist on one hand by wearing The Confederate Flag, but at the same time we’re repping the South. Do you know how infuriating it will be for a redneck to see me, a black deadlocked rapper, wearing The Confederate Flag around my shoulders? It’s almost as bad as me dating his daughter. \* and see that as a statement of duality is blinkered. Someone who sees Lil Jon’s words and then comes to the conclusion that the majority of people who fly the Confederate flag are not waving around a racist icon, is seeing things through a very strange lens indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/18 "2001-05-23T17:41:11Z")
_ **spoke-** said:_ > [@](#): > > But let’s at least acknowledge that not all those who fly the flag are raving racist loonies. Or even racist at all. You’ll not get much argument from this quarter, so long as you change the second sentence to read, “or even _knowingly_ racist at all.” Let me propose a scenario: the Battle Flag becomes a fad among southern black youth. Within months, the press notes it has become a gang symbol, and is used to mark the territory of black gangs in southern cities. Black people, some criminals, some just ordinary people, wear orange and blue bandannas, and sport Battle Flag bumper stickers. Public outcry is loud, and something just might be done about it… But what? _What is the difference between this theoretical phenomenon and the situation as it exists today?_ There is only one difference. It’s black people–gangsters and otherwise–sporting the symbol instead of (or along with) white people–Klansmen and otherwise. And if something _is_ done about it if and when the African American community co-opts the symbol, that I think will be your most unambiguous indicator that racism is alive and well in the American South, because nobody’s doing jack shit about it as the situation exists today. Until then, **spoke-** , I’m afraid you and I are going to continue to disagree. I feel that Confederate symbology perpetuates a particularly insidious type of racism, often perpetuated unknowingly by people who do not consider themselves racist. You are obviously a more optimistic soul than I, for you seem to see such enthusiasm as an innocent nod to one’s heritage. No doubt we are both right in small or large part. We may just have to wait and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/19 "2001-05-23T20:01:56Z")
Hey, all I’m saying is that people shouldn’t rush to take offense at the sight of a Confederate flag when no offense may be intended. (And when it is in fact likely, in my view, that no offense is intended.) **Biggirl** , let me take one last crack. I seem to recall that you have some Puerto Rican ancestry. Would you agree that two individuals could fly a Puerto Rican flag with an intent to convey two different meanings? _I.e._, could one individual display the flag as a nationalist, separatist banner, while another flies it merely to convey a pride in his/her ancestry? One flag. Two meanings. I read Lil Jon’s comments again, and viewed in totality, it still seems to me that he sees both aspects of the Confederate flag: 1) Its use as an emblem for racists; and 2) Its more innocent use as an emblem of the South as a region. It also seems to me that he is trying to destroy the flag’s value to racists (and more power to him). A flag isn’t racist. People may be. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087/20 "2001-05-24T04:04:16Z")
I understand perfectly that you cannot interpret other people’s symbols for them. This was why I didn’t join that other thread. The only way I know what it means to you is if you tell me and vice versa. You’ve said what the flag means to you. I’ve said what the flag means to me. Lil Jon said what the flag means to him. You’ve taken Lil Jon’s defiant little publicity stunt and turned it into a commercial for what _you_ think the flag means. I don’t think it means to him what you think it does. This is just _my_ interpretation, however. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-hip-hoppers-and-the-confederate-flag/66087.md?page=2)