# Black Lives Matter... A flawed phrase **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 9, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450 "2016-07-09T01:58:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/41 "2016-07-09T15:34:01Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > The ingenuousness of these law students might a subject of some debate, but [here’s a group](http://i.imgur.com/zkaWAFV.jpg) that appears to take that meaning of it after their professor wore a BLM shirt: Your link goes to the actress who should’ve played Susan Storm. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/42 "2016-07-09T15:34:16Z")
So most of you want to assume malevolence instead of ignorance? That seems like a bad idea to me. I’m not gonna assume that my friends who I know quite well are actually horrible racists. It makes perfect sense to me. They see all these news reports about BLM shootings. These people clearly do not think that all lives matter, or they wouldn’t be shooting people. They think that this stuff is bad, so they post things about it being so. Yes, you and I know these are just spoilers, assholes that come in and make the group less reputable. But knowing that means we can’t be surprised when that shit works. I know these people. Their problem is the same one that shows up in rape threads. They know racism is wrong, and they view cops as representative of law and order, which is good. The idea of cops being systematically racist makes no sense to them. They can’t believe it’s this big a problem, just like people who know rape is wrong have trouble believing statistics about women being raped. How can this happen when everyone they know would never be racist or a rapist? The problem is and always has been the conservative mindset (lowercase C). It’s the reluctance to believe that there is a problem. I’d call it racism if it wasn’t for the fact that occurs across the board. It’s the inertia convincing them that something about their worldview is incorrect that is the problem. It is not remotely difficult for these people to see #BlackLivesMatter as #BlackLivesMatterMore. If anything, I blame the media for not reporting on the good stuff more often, and turning the shootings into the way the uninformed public sees the movement. And did my best to make this not seem like a lecture. I’m sorry if I didn’t succeed. It’s not easy when you think the general gist of a thread is going the exact wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/43 "2016-07-09T15:46:46Z")
> [@phantom\_lamb](#): > > Black Lives Matter _means_ that ALL lives matter. > > This reminds me of people who argued against the phrase “Gay Pride” because hey, “Why can’t I be proud to be straight then?” :rolleyes: Because the Gay Pride movement didn’t say that other people can’t be proud too. BLM says people have to choose between ‘black lives matter’ and ‘all lives matter’. Which is a horrible message no matter what they intend. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/44 "2016-07-09T15:49:10Z")
“Black Lives Matter… A flawed phrase” is also a flawed phrase. But it is one you had to use, in order to conform with the brevity required by thread titling limitations. Which you could only justify by adding 15 lines of explanatory text in the OP. When you reduce a complex philosophical treatise and social commentary to wording that fits on a protest sign, you are deleting ten thousand words that are necessary to fully explain the position to nitpickers, and they still won’t be satisfied. Everybody understands what the statement means, and what the feelings are of people using the phrase, with no annotations or footnotes necessary… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/45 "2016-07-09T15:52:56Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > Another thing is that, in my experience, there’s a lot of overlap between the ALM and the Blue Lives Matter groups. Somehow they manage to understand that the latter phrase doesn’t mean that the lives of non-policemen don’t matter. and what of the lives of policeman? ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/46 "2016-07-09T15:53:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, that’s the problem. People are confused about what the name means.:dubious: > > It doesn’t matter what they call themselves. Because this is a movement that is focusing and channeling black people’s anger and resentment, some people will view such a movement as inherently threatening. To be fair, they are correct, it is threatening. It threatens the way they look at the world, their place in it, and may how they have reached that place. Unfortunately, it is easier for people to just react to a threat than to think about why it is threatening. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/47 "2016-07-09T15:54:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > and what of the lives of policeman? They matter? ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/48 "2016-07-09T16:08:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > They matter? Right there in the phrase, after all. > [@BigT](#): > > I know these people. Their problem is the same one that shows up in rape threads. They know racism is wrong, and they view cops as representative of law and order, which is good. The idea of cops being systematically racist makes no sense to them. They can’t believe it’s this big a problem, just like people who know rape is wrong have trouble believing statistics about women being raped. How can this happen when everyone they know would never be racist or a rapist? > > \*\*The problem is and always has been the conservative mindset (lowercase C). It’s the reluctance to believe that there is a problem. \*\*I’d call it racism if it wasn’t for the fact that occurs across the board. It’s the inertia convincing them that something about their worldview is incorrect that is the problem. > > It is not remotely difficult for these people to see #BlackLivesMatter as #BlackLivesMatterMore. If anything, I blame the media for not reporting on the good stuff more often, and turning the shootings into the way the uninformed public sees the movement. > > And did my best to make this not seem like a lecture. I’m sorry if I didn’t succeed. It’s not easy when you think the general gist of a thread is going the exact wrong way. On the bold - this is exactly why changing the slogan isn’t going to solve the issue that the ALM folks create. They do not want to admit there is a problem. If the slogan was Black Lives Also Matter, they’d be arguing that no one said black lives didn’t also matter. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/49 "2016-07-09T16:08:39Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > The ingenuousness of these law students might a subject of some debate, but [here’s a group](http://i.imgur.com/zkaWAFV.jpg) that appears to take that meaning of it after their professor wore a BLM shirt: That’s a picture of Reese Witherspoon, witherdaughter. Did you intend to post something else there? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/50 "2016-07-09T16:20:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It is not remotely difficult for these people to see #BlackLivesMatter as #BlackLivesMatterMore. If anything, I blame the media for not reporting on the good stuff more often, and turning the shootings into the way the uninformed public sees the movement. > > And did my best to make this not seem like a lecture. I’m sorry if I didn’t succeed. It’s not easy when you think the general gist of a thread is going the exact wrong way. I don’t know these friends of yours, but the obvious thrust of BLM is that black people are being shot and jailed at a disproportionate rate, ie currently their lives don’t seem to matter as much, so their name is obviously referring to making them matter. Any of your friends that don’t get that and jump to the conclusion that it really means “black lives matter more” are either being disingenuous or are so ignorant they shouldn’t even try to form an opinion either way. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/51 "2016-07-09T17:23:08Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Your link goes to the actress who should’ve played Susan Storm. Whoops. Copy paste error. [Here’s the link.](http://imgur.com/a/YkDVQ) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/52 "2016-07-09T19:18:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > As I mentioned before, they have stated that all lives do not matter, perhaps not their intention, but that’s why language matters. If you’re attempting to argue that “Black Lives Matter” implies that other lives don’t matter, do you also feel that, “Grass is green,” implies that only grass is green? Does “Water is wet” imply only water is wet? Where, then, does this suddenly invented rule come from, that if one say, “Black Lives Matter,” it implies that only black lives matter? > [@](#): > > Because the Gay Pride movement didn’t say that other people can’t be proud too. The gay pride movement never claimed that only gay people could be proud. None the less, people who don’t really like gay people insisted that it did. Black Lives Matter has never claimed that only black lives matter. I leave the rest of the syllogism in your hands. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/53 "2016-07-09T19:19:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > As I mentioned before, they have stated that all lives do not matter, perhaps not their intention, but that’s why language matters. If you’re attempting to argue that “Black Lives Matter” implies that other lives don’t matter, do you also feel that, “Grass is green,” implies that only grass is green? Does “Water is wet” imply only water is wet? No? Where, then, does this suddenly invented rule come from, that if one say, “Black Lives Matter,” it implies that only black lives matter? > [@](#): > > Because the Gay Pride movement didn’t say that other people can’t be proud too. The gay pride movement never claimed that only gay people could be proud. None the less, people who don’t really like gay people insisted that it did. Black Lives Matter has never claimed that only black lives matter. I leave the rest of the syllogism in your hands. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/54 "2016-07-09T21:36:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t know these friends of yours, but the obvious thrust of BLM is that black people are being shot and jailed at a disproportionate rate, ie currently their lives don’t seem to matter as much, so their name is obviously referring to making them matter. Any of your friends that don’t get that and jump to the conclusion that it really means “black lives matter more” are either being disingenuous or are so ignorant they shouldn’t even try to form an opinion either way. the problem with BLM is that it bases an assumption on race. If that’s the criteria then other statistics of deaths based on race should be included in the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/55 "2016-07-09T22:51:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the problem with BLM is that it bases an assumption on race. If that’s the criteria then other statistics of deaths based on race should be included in the discussion. I just contacted BLM headquarters. They’ve given you permission to discuss whatever stats you want. Lemme guess, first up is black on black crime numbers? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/56 "2016-07-09T23:01:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > and what of the lives of policeman? Statistically speaking it’s more dangerous to be a chauffeur or a garbagemen than a policemen. Meanwhile, every black person goes into a traffic stop expecting they could die even if they comply with all commands and instructions. So yes, police lives matter, but right now that doesn’t seem to be the most pressing social issue at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/57 "2016-07-09T23:17:21Z")
Also, it’s not an either/or thing between police lives and black lives. If one of your hidden assumptions is that they are mutually exclusive, maybe some soul searching is in order before sallying forth with opinions. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/58 "2016-07-09T23:23:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you’re attempting to argue that “Black Lives Matter” implies that other lives don’t matter, do you also feel that, “Grass is green,” implies that only grass is green? Does “Water is wet” imply only water is wet? Where, then, does this suddenly invented rule come from, that if one say, “Black Lives Matter,” it implies that only black lives matter? > > The gay pride movement never claimed that only gay people could be proud. None the less, people who don’t really like gay people insisted that it did. > > Black Lives Matter has never claimed that only black lives matter. > > I leave the rest of the syllogism in your hands. Has anyone said you have to choose between ‘grass is green’ and ‘lettuce is green’? BLM says you have to choose between ‘black lives matter’ and ‘all lives matter’. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/59 "2016-07-09T23:35:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Has anyone said you have to choose between ‘grass is green’ and ‘lettuce is green’? BLM says you have to choose between ‘black lives matter’ and ‘all lives matter’. I think, and correct me if I’m wrong, that BLM is saying you have to choose a slogan, not to make a value judgment about whether black lives matter more than any other. The apparent reality is that black lives don’t matter as much as other lives. “All lives matter” doesn’t address that reality. Someone got it right upthread saying the most descriptive slogan would have been “black lives matter too”. I’ve reflected a bit on the situation, and I conclude that (1) “black lives matter too” is too long to pack a solid memetic punch, and (2) “black lives matter” serves to highlight the unspoken contrast, which to my mind is the core issue - the idea that black lives don’t matter. Black lives matter. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450/60 "2016-07-09T23:59:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Has anyone said you have to choose between ‘grass is green’ and ‘lettuce is green’? BLM says you have to choose between ‘black lives matter’ and ‘all lives matter’. Bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-a-flawed-phrase/759450.md?page=4)