# Black Lives Matter? Or White Killers Matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858 "2018-07-31T09:45:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/21 "2018-07-31T22:41:20Z")
It happens, but by far the primary threat to African-Americans is black on black violence. Jessie Jackson isn’t the only guy to admit that he relaxes when he sees the guy who surprised him in a dark alley was white. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/22 "2018-07-31T22:46:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It happens, but by far the primary threat to African-Americans is black on black violence. Jessie Jackson isn’t the only guy to admit that he relaxes when he sees the guy who surprised him in a dark alley was white. Suppose that’s true. Suppose for a second, to quite literally make numbers up from thin air, that for every time a cop murders a black man and the goes back to work and sits in the police station, ten black men kill other black men and disappear into the night. Supposing I agree that we should encourage the police to investigate and try to arrest black murderers. I still think that we should also investigate and (if justified) arrest the cop. For one thing, he’s easier to find. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/23 "2018-07-31T22:48:04Z")
Oh no, I agreed about cops. Cop killings are especially egregrious because it shows blacks they can’t get justice. But random white criminals are a different case. A random white criminal killing a black person should be no different than a random black criminal killing a black person. If you only care about the former, then black lives don’t really matter to you IMO. Whites matter to you. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/24 "2018-07-31T23:05:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh no, I agreed about cops. Cop killings are especially egregrious because it shows blacks they can’t get justice. But random white criminals are a different case. A random white criminal killing a black person should be no different than a random black criminal killing a black person. If you only care about the former, then black lives don’t really matter to you IMO. Whites matter to you. :dubious: Shouldn’t that be that if I only care about white _victims_ that black lives don’t matter to me? Don’t get me wrong, we should investigate all murders, and ignoring black-on-black crime sends a horrible message. (One of several horrible messages, actually; take your pick.) But paying special attention to white-on-black murders could, in theory, be an effort to crack down on hate crimes. Or not, for all I know. Regardless, I’m still of the personal opinion that the BLM movement should focus its efforts on on cops that kill people. It’s a more focused message, and you don’t have to waste time wondering whether you’ll catch the guy. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/25 "2018-08-01T00:48:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As for all of that black-on-black crime, take a moment to stop to think about the root causes. If someone wrongs me, a white guy, in some way (or even if I just think that someone’s wronged me), I have a lot of options. I can call the cops. I can take them to court. I can, in short, deal with it in a civilized way. > > But suppose that weren’t so. From the point of view of many blacks, the police and courts are the enemy. The absolute best that they can expect from them is to leave them alone, and they’re sure as heck not going to help them. And they have very good reasons for that belief. So if you’re an inner-city black guy, and someone wrongs you, what options do you have? You’re going to take it into your own hands, and then you’ve got black violence. Or, more likely, you’re going to get a bunch of friends to help you (with the understanding that you’ll also help them when they need it), and now you’ve got gang violence. It’s a natural result of not being able to trust the legitimate authorities. > > Now, this isn’t the only cause of black-on-black violence. But it’s a major contributor. And so, by addressing the problem of police violence, groups like BLM are _also_ addressing the problem of black-on-black violence, by addressing the root cause. I don’t understand this thought. As some of you might know I live in West Virginia and practice law in some real rural counties. It is fair to say that a lot of people I deal with are not fans of black folks, and that is very unfortunate. However, I have never seen a situation where a black client was treated unfairly by the police, the prosecutor, or the judge. Not once, not ever. I mean, yes they are overcharged just like white defendants, but I have never, even in the mountains or the coal fields, seen any disparate treatment. There are no winks and nods in the judge’s chambers. If anything, blacks get better treatment because nobody wants the national media descending on the town so all of the rules are meticulously followed, whereas with a poor white boy nobody cares so the cops can jerk him around. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/26 "2018-08-01T00:57:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As for all of that black-on-black crime, take a moment to stop to think about the root causes. If someone wrongs me, a white guy, in some way (or even if I just think that someone’s wronged me), I have a lot of options. I can call the cops. I can take them to court. I can, in short, deal with it in a civilized way. > > But suppose that weren’t so. From the point of view of many blacks, the police and courts are the enemy. The absolute best that they can expect from them is to leave them alone, and they’re sure as heck not going to help them. And they have very good reasons for that belief. So if you’re an inner-city black guy, and someone wrongs you, what options do you have? You’re going to take it into your own hands, and then you’ve got black violence. Or, more likely, you’re going to get a bunch of friends to help you (with the understanding that you’ll also help them when they need it), and now you’ve got gang violence. It’s a natural result of not being able to trust the legitimate authorities. Any authorities that fit the description you gave are in fact not legitimate authorities. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/27 "2018-08-01T01:04:43Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t understand this thought. As some of you might know I live in West Virginia and practice law in some real rural counties. It is fair to say that a lot of people I deal with are not fans of black folks, and that is very unfortunate. > > However, I have never seen a situation where a black client was treated unfairly by the police, the prosecutor, or the judge. Not once, not ever. I mean, yes they are overcharged just like white defendants, but I have never, even in the mountains or the coal fields, seen any disparate treatment. There are no winks and nods in the judge’s chambers. > > If anything, blacks get better treatment because nobody wants the national media descending on the town so all of the rules are meticulously followed, whereas with a poor white boy nobody cares so the cops can jerk him around. Do you believe you’d have the same “not once, not ever” record if you had worked for your whole career in Detroit, Chicago, or some other large urban area? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/28 "2018-08-01T01:07:54Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Do you believe you’d have the same “not once, not ever” record if you had worked for your whole career in Detroit, Chicago, or some other large urban area? I honestly don’t know. Why wouldn’t those places be more progressive than bumblefuck West Virginia? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/29 "2018-08-01T06:05:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I honestly don’t know. Why wouldn’t those places be more progressive than bumblefuck West Virginia? Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t really tell us anything about this situation at large. Polling gives us a better idea - and a full 50% of black American adults report that _they personally_have been mistreated by police. As compared to 3% of white Americans. I’ve posted the link before, and I’ll find out again when I’m able. But if you’ve been personally mistreated by law enforcement, then that goes a long way towards explaining why you’d seriously mistrust and fear law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/30 "2018-08-01T06:13:02Z")
Linky: [What Americans think about the Economy - AP-NORC](http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages/HTML) Reports/law-enforcement-and-violence-the-divide-between-black-and-white-americans0803-9759.aspx ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/31 "2018-08-01T06:54:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BigT, I’m not quoting you here but I do appreciate your explanation as the best one. But it still doesn’t satisfy completely, because cops drag their feet on ALL killings of blacks. But if the killer is thought to be black, it’s not a BLM case. If a black man had murdered Nia Wilson, the cops would have behaved just as disinterestedly, and no one outside the local news media would care about the story. There’s also the element of the story that goes against BLM and Shaun King’s narrative: this guy was released early from prison as part of “prison reform”. But then you wouldn’t have the issue of racism at play while the cops seem to ignore it. We’re dealing with two different things here: what BLM cares about, and what specific stories become a big rallying point. And you also cannot assume that BLM is on their own responsible for what winds up trending, since it can’t trend unless people who are not part BLM also get involved. I’ve definitely constantly heard BLM complain about how cops drag their feet with black victims. I’ve heard examples. But that doesn’t mean those examples will become some big rallying point. For that to happen, something has to stand out about the situation. There has to be an emotional resonance that will capture the public. There has to be a point of outrage. There has to be a continued controversy. And then you have to consider what else is going on and the exact mood at that point and just so many other variables for why something will go viral like this. I looked at King’s Twitter, and I see him bringing up a lot of things that I don’t remember becoming viral. So it doesn’t seem that his bringing something up makes it become a thing in the wider culture. My main point is that you can’t take the virality of a particular story and the lack of virality of others to determine what is and isn’t important to BLM–or any other movement. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/32 "2018-08-01T12:57:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t really tell us anything about this situation at large. Polling gives us a better idea - and a full 50% of black American adults report that _they personally_have been mistreated by police. As compared to 3% of white Americans. > > I’ve posted the link before, and I’ll find out again when I’m able. But if you’ve been personally mistreated by law enforcement, then that goes a long way towards explaining why you’d seriously mistrust and fear law enforcement. I personally cannot give that metric a lot of validity. Given the known culture of black children being raised to distrust law enforcement at a very early age, it is possible that a not insignificant to very high percentage of those black american adults are going to almost always say they were mistreated regardless of the officers demeanor or treatment during any interaction where the black american adult has committed a crime or violation? I suspect that unless the officer is delivering your stolen purse or letting you go with a warning that the black american adult will say they were mistreated even if the officer was polite, patient, understanding and gentile. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/33 "2018-08-01T12:59:38Z")
If the officer was gentile, that means he was a big dick! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/34 "2018-08-01T13:12:24Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > Given the known culture of black children being raised to distrust law enforcement at a very early age, it is possible that a not insignificant to very high percentage of those black american adults are going to almost always say they were mistreated regardless of the officers demeanor or treatment during any interaction where the black american adult has committed a crime or violation? Black people are three times as likely to be \*\*shot \*\*by a cop as white people. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/35 "2018-08-01T13:12:36Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I suspect that unless the officer is delivering your stolen purse or letting you go with a warning that the black american adult will say they were mistreated even if the officer was polite, patient, understanding and gentile. And I suspect that you have no real insight into the issue. Perhaps you should try speaking to some African-Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/36 "2018-08-01T13:16:14Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I personally cannot give that metric a lot of validity. > > Given the known culture of black children being raised to distrust law enforcement at a very early age, it is possible that a not insignificant to very high percentage of those black american adults are going to almost always say they were mistreated regardless of the officers demeanor or treatment during any interaction where the black american adult has committed a crime or violation? > > I suspect that unless the officer is delivering your stolen purse or letting you go with a warning that the black american adult will say they were mistreated even if the officer was polite, patient, understanding and gentile. This reads like a longer version of “the blacks don’t know what they are talking about”. I tend to trust people speaking about their own personal experiences. I don’t think one race is better at this than any other race. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/37 "2018-08-01T13:39:06Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > I personally cannot give that metric a lot of validity. > > Given the known culture of black children being raised to distrust law enforcement at a very early age, it is possible that a not insignificant to very high percentage of those black american adults are going to almost always say they were mistreated regardless of the officers demeanor or treatment during any interaction where the black american adult has committed a crime or violation? > > I suspect that unless the officer is delivering your stolen purse or letting you go with a warning that the black american adult will say they were mistreated even if the officer was polite, patient, understanding and gentile. Is there a name for this type of flawed argument? It’s where you start with a small fact, and gradually build it up to a much larger conclusion than that fact warrants. I kinda picture it like a snowball running down a hill. You can maybe argue that black people being taught to mistrust the police would lead to skewed numbers in borderline cases. But that’s as far as you can go with that one fact. You can’t take that further to asserting that some will always say they are mistreated, nor to your further conclusion in your final paragraph that all black Americans will say they are mistreated, no matter what. Not trusting someone doesn’t lead to assuming they have actively harmed you. I once had a neighbor who I didn’t trust. Sometimes he would make idle chit chat while I was out mowing. If someone asked me about that interaction, would I say he mistreated me? No. He was nice then. I just don’t trust him. Well, black people are no less intelligent than I am, so why would they be any different? In other words, you can argue that the numbers are skewed slightly, as white people are more likely to give a cop the benefit of the doubt. You can’t, however, use that to cover such a wide disparity. Even assuming 1/3 of interactions were misunderstandings, you’d still have 1 in 3 black people having had bad interactions with the police. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/38 "2018-08-01T13:43:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t really tell us anything about this situation at large. Polling gives us a better idea - and a full 50% of black American adults report that _they personally_have been mistreated by police. As compared to 3% of white Americans. > > I’ve posted the link before, and I’ll find out again when I’m able. But if you’ve been personally mistreated by law enforcement, then that goes a long way towards explaining why you’d seriously mistrust and fear law enforcement. I believe you mean “mistreated due to race” rather than just mistreated. Whether someone mistreated you due to race is a judgment that’s very difficult to accurately assess. In particular it relies very heavily on 1) one’s preconceived notions about racism, and 2) an assessment of how the police would theoretically have treated someone of another race in that same situation. The fact that the person being surveyed is discussing their own _personal_ situation doesn’t give them a unique insight WRT this. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/39 "2018-08-01T13:46:31Z")
The polling numbers in aggregate do show that it is race related though. If you are arguing that there could be another explanation for that disparity, don’t you need to suggest what that other reason is? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/40 "2018-08-01T14:02:49Z")
Both factors I listed in my prior post would account for the disparity. In addition to these, there are also far more white police officers than black ones and black people are also more likely to interact with the police in criminal situations, so there’s far more opportunity to have this belief whether accurate or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858.md?page=3)