# Black Lives Matter? Or White Killers Matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858 "2018-07-31T09:45:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/41 "2018-08-01T14:08:42Z")
No they don’t. It’s just another version of “the blacks don’t know what they are talking about”. Very convenient to be able to justify handwaving the disparity away to yourself though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/42 "2018-08-01T14:13:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > black people are also more likely to interact with the police in criminal situations Huh. Why d’ya s’pose that is? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/43 "2018-08-01T14:58:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Huh. Why d’ya s’pose that is? Because they commit crimes at a disproportionate rate, and because they are more likely to live in higher-crime areas, Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/44 "2018-08-01T15:37:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Black people are three times as likely to be \*\*shot \*\*by a cop as white people. But is the absolute chance of that happening very high? Or is it an extremely low probability for both blacks and whites? Blacks are [7 times more likely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide) to be arrested for homicide than whites in the US (even if you assume there are disproportionate rates of arrest by race, I would imagine actual perpetrators must exceed a 3:1 ratio) - should you be more afraid of being murdered by a random black person than a random white person? It appears [987 people](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/) were shot to death by police in 2017, with 223 being black. There are around [63 million](https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/pbtss11.pdf) encounters between the public and police per year, with around half being involuntary (ie. police initiated) - so let’s say 30 million. Being generous, let’s say the number of police encounters are proportionate to the general population (though I am guessing blacks likely face much higher rates of police encounters than average) - so at 14% of the population –\> 14% of encounters, that is 4.2 million unwanted encounters between black people and police per year. 223 shooting deaths out of 4.2 million is 0.005% - and the actual percentage is certain to be much lower. Plus, the number of unjustified shootings is also just a portion of those deaths. The average black person should be no more afraid of being shot to death by police as they are afraid of dying in a car accident - they are much more likely to die by the latter. I’m not saying that unjustified shootings of black people by police are not a problem - they absolutely are. Should they fear being mistreated by police? The stats suggest yes (if 50% of black people have personally experienced mistreatment by police, that is a huge amount). But should a black person actually fear _being shot_ by police? I would say that is a largely irrational fear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/45 "2018-08-01T15:39:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Both factors I listed in my prior post would account for the disparity. > > In addition to these, there are also far more white police officers than black ones and black people are also more likely to interact with the police in criminal situations, so there’s far more opportunity to have this belief whether accurate or not. I don’t think there’s any reason to believe that black people are less likely to be accurate about racism against black people than others. Further, through American history, black people always had the most accurate understanding of racism against black people – in general, far more accurate than contemporary white people. I see no reason why this would suddenly be very different. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/46 "2018-08-01T15:48:36Z")
I don’t think any of this is logical, but I think we’ve hashed this out already in prior threads on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/47 "2018-08-01T16:45:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It happens, but by far the primary threat to African-Americans is black on black violence. But the point of the BLM movement is specifically to call out the role of **racism** in encouraging and condoning violence against blacks. There are lots of other organizations trying to remedy the problems of black people inflicting violence on other black people for **non** -racist reasons. That’s not BLM’s mission, nor is there any reason why it should be. The fact that violence against black people is still regarded by many white people as an acceptable sport, or a legitimate act of social dominance, or a permissible threat to confirm their social dominance, means that BLM have a very valid point in protesting seemingly “senseless” white-on-black assaults. Even if those types of assaults are not, statistically speaking, the largest threat to black people’s safety. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/48 "2018-08-01T18:15:13Z")
I wonder if they would be more successful protesting police violence in general. There are many “white” victims of police, and I think they could plenty of whites to back them instead of resorting to knee-jerk tribalism. Instead they insist that whites and blacks receive equal injustice, a situation that could come about with an increase in the rate of violence against whites and no decrease in the rate of violence against blacks. They also water down a potentially strong anti-state message by packaging this message with a laundry list of preferred state interventions. To me, they sometimes seem like typical social democrats using black victims for their own agenda. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/49 "2018-08-01T18:18:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Instead they insist that whites and blacks receive equal injustice, a situation that could come about with an increase in the rate of violence against whites and no decrease in the rate of violence against blacks. Um, no, nobody is calling for increased police violence against whites. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > They also water down a potentially strong anti-state message Not like watering down their anti-racism message by opposing police violence in general would be. > [@](#): > > To me, they sometimes seem like typical social democrats using black victims for their own agenda. The possibility that they want to stop being killed just can’t really be it, can it? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/50 "2018-08-01T19:37:22Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In other words, you can argue that the numbers are skewed slightly, as white people are more likely to give a cop the benefit of the doubt. You can’t, however, use that to cover such a wide disparity. Even assuming 1/3 of interactions were misunderstandings, you’d still have 1 in 3 black people having had bad interactions with the police. I agree that the argument that blacks are going to view any interaction with the police as race-based mistreatment is going way too far. But it could be true that blacks are more likely to view a negative encounter as being based on race than whites would. The poll question was whether you been treated unfairly _because of your race_. Lots of blacks said they had. Few whites said they had. The missing data point, I think, is how many white people believe they were treated unfairly by the police for reasons other than their race. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/51 "2018-08-01T20:20:16Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > But should a black person actually fear _being shot_ by police? I would say that is a largely irrational fear. I believe **ElvisL1ves** brought up the threefold likelihood of blacks being shot by police as a way to demonstrate the reality of disproportionate mistreatment – not to claim that being shot is the most rational fear or even the most common fear. As your stats illustrate, the likelihood of anyone (of any race) being shot by police is vanishingly small. But what about being pulled over for random reasons? What about a simple traffic stop escalating into an arrest for disobeying an officer’s orders? What about being tased and beaten for disputing a parking ticket? If these types of events happen with a similar 3:1 ratio, now we’re talking about something a black person can legitimately worry about. By highlighting shootings, BLM brings this concern into the daylight and asks, “Why would a society allow this?” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/52 "2018-08-02T12:58:59Z")
But they undercut and discredit that concern by crying racism in every shooting, even when it is screamingly obvious that the shooting had nothing to do with racism and was justified. ‘Why would a society allow someone to get shot, just because [he attacked the rescue squad when they were trying to treat his girlfriend’s ankle which he broke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jamar_Clark)?’ That doesn’t bring out any concern - it’s just crying Wolf. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/53 "2018-08-02T13:07:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But they undercut and discredit that concern by crying racism in every shooting, even when it is screamingly obvious that the shooting had nothing to do with racism and was justified. > > ‘Why would a society allow someone to get shot, just because [he attacked the rescue squad when they were trying to treat his girlfriend’s ankle which he broke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Jamar_Clark)?’ That doesn’t bring out any concern - it’s just crying Wolf. > > Regards, > Shodan Thankfully for those who want to dismiss any legitimate concerns about bias and brutality in law enforcement, there will always be a non-zero number of people who will protest and criticize legitimate actions, thus always leaving room for the dismissers to dismiss the legitimate concerns. Maintaining the status quo is always easy to justify – always has been and always will be. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/54 "2018-08-02T14:08:36Z")
Get back to us when you have a legitimate concern. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/55 "2018-08-02T14:16:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Get back to us when you have a legitimate concern. > > Regards, > Shodan Obviously, it’s in the eye of the beholder, but I would think that most folks would be concerned that at least 50% of black Americans may believe, due to their own personal experiences with law enforcement, that law enforcement is untrustworthy or even potentially dangerous to themselves and their families. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/56 "2018-08-02T15:53:40Z")
It’s true that in official stats blacks kill more whites than vice versa. _But, something which is key—and where BLM focuses especially—is **blacks killed by cops**._ Blacks killed by white civilians _OR_ cops is a larger number, roughly equal to whites killed by blacks. True, we need to subtract the “justified” killings by cop. But how can we do that when the cop says “He reached for his cell phone so I had to empty my magazine into him” and the all-white jury agrees? Cops killing innocent and/or non-threatening people (due to a “perceived threat” whether real or not) is the big problem. _And skin blackness is a major stimulus for cop fear._ > [@JB99](#): > > The problem is the context. In a perfect world, we would be equally outraged by all murders. We _should_ be equally outraged by all murders. > > But the problem is that we live in a society where white-on-black racism is systemic. Our country has a vast and lengthy history of whites using violence to oppress, enslave, disenfranchise, and intimidate black Americans. That is why a white-on-black murder is assumed to have a racist component. It occurs within the context of a long story of racist violence. > > A black-on-Latino murder attracts less attention because it does not have this context. Black Americans do not have a history of oppressing Latinos, and (more importantly)\* black Americans do not control the instruments of power that suppress and control Latinos.\* > > Here’s something white people just refuse to understand: When a white cop kills a black person, whites tend to view it as an isolated incident. White critics only care about the facts of that specific case. (Eg Was the cop actually justified in using force in that particular instance?) Black Americans, on the other hand, look at the killing in the context of a systematic campaign of oppression that dates back centuries. The individual killing - rightly or wrongly - is viewed in this context as a symptom of the larger problem of racism and racial violence. Thank you. It’s sad that at this otherwise-intelligent message board you still need to explain this to some of us. > [@adaher](#): > > It happens, but by far the primary threat to African-Americans is black on black violence. Jessie Jackson isn’t the only guy to admit that he relaxes when he sees the guy who surprised him in a dark alley was white. Black crime is a problem. Has anyone disputed that? We all need to work together to improve the social conditions and status of blacks so they’ll be less likely to resort to crime. The question we must ask, **adaher** , is _Does police killing of innocent non-threatening blacks serve to improve the black experience in America?_ I think not. Perhaps you disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/57 "2018-08-02T16:01:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obviously, it’s in the eye of the beholder, but I would think that most folks would be concerned that at least 50% of black Americans may believe, due to their own personal experiences with law enforcement, that law enforcement is untrustworthy or even potentially dangerous to themselves and their families. I agree that this is a huge concern. However, in my opinion, people who exaggerate the extent of the (underlying) issue, and who consistently attribute things to racism which are in all likelihood unrelated, who constantly preach about how racist white people in society are, are a big part of the reason that so many black people feel this way. So to the extent that this belief is a problem - and IMO it’s a very big problem - then these people are at fault to a large extent. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/58 "2018-08-02T16:10:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that this is a huge concern. > > However, in my opinion, people who exaggerate the extent of the (underlying) issue, and who consistently attribute things to racism which are in all likelihood unrelated, who constantly preach about how racist white people in society are, are a big part of the reason that so many black people feel this way. So to the extent that this belief is a problem - and IMO it’s a very big problem - then these people are at fault to a large extent. I sense you’re trying to say something to me personally here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it… 😉 Suffice to say, I stand with you against exaggerators, those who attribute unrelated things to racism, and anyone who “constantly” preaches “about how racist white people in society are”. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/59 "2018-08-02T17:03:42Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Here’s something white people just refuse to understand: When a white cop kills a black person, whites tend to view it as an isolated incident. White critics only care about the facts of that specific case. (Eg Was the cop actually justified in using force in that particular instance?) Black Americans, on the other hand, look at the killing in the context of a systematic campaign of oppression that dates back centuries. The individual killing - rightly or wrongly - is viewed in this context as a symptom of the larger problem of racism and racial violence. > [@septimus](#): > > Thank you. It’s sad that at this otherwise-intelligent message board you still need to explain this to some of us. I’m not sure what to make of this. If you want to talk about widespread social phenomena in general terms, then do so. As a white person, I certainly do _not_ refuse to understand the historic context of racial oppression and racial violence. But if you choose to talk about a specific case, it’s hardly a failure of intelligence for someone to care about the facts of that specific case, when that case is publicized and widely protested by a movement for more general social change. Surely, given the widespread historic problem of racial violence, it should not be difficult to focus on incidents that are _actual examples_ of the problem. How exactly do you think that people who shout loudly about cases that are _not_ racially motivated violence are helping their cause? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858/60 "2018-08-02T18:50:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I sense you’re trying to say something to me personally here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it… 😉 > > Suffice to say, I stand with you against exaggerators, those who attribute unrelated things to racism, and anyone who “constantly” preaches “about how racist white people in society are”. Well I’m sure you mean well. 🙂 But the consequence of many people being wrong about the level of racism, the likely connection of any given instance to racism etc., is that it perpetuates the very racial problem that you’re expressing concern about here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-lives-matter-or-white-killers-matter/818858.md?page=4)