# Black market ivory buyers, and the poachers who fill their demand **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655 "2013-09-25T16:42:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/1 "2013-09-25T16:42:34Z")
So you bought a little ivory trinket on the black market. Congratulations asshole, you’re part of the problem. What’s the problem? [Poachers poison 90 elephants with industrial cyanide](http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/25/20689560-poachers-poison-90-elephants-with-cyanide-in-zimbabwe-wildlife-park?lite) This is the kind of indiscriminate, wantaon slaughter you’re helping to support. Ecotourism has a shot at providing a sustainable economic activity for the nations where these animals live. OTOH, killing entire communities of elephants for their ivory won’t last long. When the elephants are gone, there will be no more ivory, and there will be no more ecotourism. But at least you’ll have your little ivory trinket. Better get your gorilla-hand ashtray before they’re gone, too. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/2 "2013-09-25T17:08:34Z")
1. why is it poachers kill elephants as opposed to just drugging them and taking a tusk or two? 2. are elephants really all that important ecologically-speaking? Seems like they’re a bit of a nuissance in inhabited areas? 3. do tusks grow continuously (like rodent teeth) or do they get to a certain length and then that’s it? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/3 "2013-09-25T17:17:18Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > 1. why is it poachers kill elephants as opposed to just drugging them and taking a tusk or two? Shooting them is easier. > [@](#): > > 1. are elephants really all that important ecologically-speaking? Seems like they’re a bit of a nuissance in inhabited areas? It is usually a mistake to classify a native species as more or less important to the ecology. Elephants are the largest of the land mammals, so we want to keep them around in the wild. > [@](#): > > 1. do tusks grow continuously (like rodent teeth) or do they get to a certain length and then that’s it? They don’t grow back, if that is what you mean. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/4 "2013-09-25T21:57:24Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > 1. why is it poachers kill elephants as opposed to just drugging them and taking a tusk or two? Discalimer- I can’t get the link in the OP to load (I’m sure it’s a problem on my end.) and am unfamiliar with the details of this particular case. But, I’ve learned from previous SDMB threads that the average poacher is not some rich guy who hungers for still more money. The average poacher is some poor guy who wants money to feed his family. If he had the money for elephant tranquilizer, a delivery system for the tranquilizer, sterile surgical equipment and anasthetic, he wouldn’t need the ivory. The situation, AFAIK, is the same in India with regards to endangered tigers. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/5 "2013-09-25T23:40:28Z")
Recently have been to Tanzania. Went to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater. From what I was told, the incidents of poaching are way up. The rhinoceros is particularly in danger of extinction. The reason, according to the locals is the emergence of the Chinese middle and upper classes. They are creating a demand that wasn’t previously there. Here’s an interesting article: [http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130925/NEWS/309250315](http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130925/NEWS/309250315) 6 tons of ivory to be ground up but that is a small piece of the $19 billion annual market. Just like the drug trade, first those in dire need start doing it. Then the money flows in and it becomes a highly sophisticated operation where the money flow to the top. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/6 "2013-09-25T23:44:47Z")
What kinds of products, I wonder, does this poached ivory get made into? Intricately carved pieces of art? Or mass-market ivory chopsticks one finds in Chinatown? (Or both, of course, is possible). Not that it matters, you shouldn’t buy ivory at all unless you know the source was not poached (not sure how you would be able to tell) or else if it’s a couple of centuries old. I mean, you mention black market ivory, but is there a white market for “new” ivory? Are there sources for legitimate, non-poached ivory? Seems to me it would be best just not to buy it at all. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/7 "2013-09-25T23:45:15Z")
A knife manufacturer is doing a sprint run of pocket knives with ivory handle scales (at least 300 or I estimate five full-length tusks.) He claims it was auctioned off from old impounded ivory, and the animals were killed in the late 60s. Back to reality: how different is it when culling the sick or old ones in 2013? Heck, you can even kill 2-5 mature males a year in a herd of 200 and you’ll hardly dent the population. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/8 "2013-09-26T01:13:41Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Discalimer- I can’t get the link in the OP to load (I’m sure it’s a problem on my end.) and am unfamiliar with the details of this particular case. > > But, I’ve learned from previous SDMB threads that the average poacher is not some rich guy who hungers for still more money. The average poacher is some poor guy who wants money to feed his family. If he had the money for elephant tranquilizer, a delivery system for the tranquilizer, sterile surgical equipment and anasthetic, he wouldn’t need the ivory. The situation, AFAIK, is the same in India with regards to endangered tigers. Sure, but governments do, especially with ecotourism donations. Extract the tusks, burn the ivory, then no one has any reason to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/9 "2013-09-26T01:19:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Sure, but governments do, especially with ecotourism donations. Extract the tusks, burn the ivory, then no one has any reason to kill them. Maybe I’m misunderstanding. Are you suggesting detusking elephants? How will they make their living without tusks? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/10 "2013-09-26T03:49:41Z")
My understanding is elephants are a problem in some places and so I don’t understand why there’s such a big objection to (humanely and sustainably) culling them and selling the resulting ivory. Whenever I see some impoverished African country destroying millions of dollars worth of captured poached ivory, I find myself sadly wondering why they don’t/aren’t allowed to sell it and put the money towards something useful- I mean, like it or not, the elephants from whom the ivory was obtained are dead and destroying the ivory isn’t going to bring them back - but the money from selling it could be used for all manner of worthy or important projects, surely? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/11 "2013-09-26T03:55:04Z")
^ You’re talking about a regulated and basically nationalized business. Doing that involving natural resources doesn’t sit well with governments because a country’s natural resources are viewed as God-given gifts and the ones who benefit from them should be the poor citizens. But if in doing that you endanger the gift altogether, better not to do it all. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/12 "2013-09-26T10:48:28Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Back to reality: how different is it when culling the sick or old ones in 2013? Heck, you can even kill 2-5 mature males a year in a herd of 200 and you’ll hardly dent the population. I see two problems - 1. 2-5 mature males a year will not satisfy the demand. 2. Herds of 200 are getting hard to come by, if they exist at all anymore. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/13 "2013-09-26T10:58:22Z")
Elephants are not endagered everywhere. In some South African parks there is an overpopulation of elephants, to the extent that the government has considered [culling thousands of them](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/26/environment). Which does give rise to the question of whether the resulting ivory should be saleable, or if that would encourage the demand for illegal poached ivory. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/14 "2013-09-26T12:46:27Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Recently have been to Tanzania. Went to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater. From what I was told, the incidents of poaching are way up. The rhinoceros is particularly in danger of extinction. The reason, according to the locals is the emergence of the Chinese middle and upper classes. They are creating a demand that wasn’t previously there. The killing of endangered rhinos is largely due to [demand for “traditional medicines”](http://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/threats_to_rhino/poaching_for_traditional_chinese_medicine) made from rhino horn. "_Taiwanese self-made millionaires are notorious for their conspicuous consumption of rare and exotic wildlife, and the Chinese traditional adage that animals exist primarily for exploitation is nowhere more pronounced than on Taiwan. Most of the rhino horn for sale there comes from South Africa. The demand for Asian horn in particular is increasing and wealthy Taiwanese, aware that prices will rise even higher as rhinoceros numbers decline, are buying it as an investment. In those regions where rhino horn products are dispensed – legally or illegally – the most popular medicines are used for tranquilisers, for relieving dizziness, building energy, nourishing the blood, curing laryngitis, or simply, as the old snake-oil salesmen would have it, “Curing whatever ails you.”_ Traditional Chinese Medicine remedies, apart from their widespread uselessness, are contributing to loss of both [rare animals and plants](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/behindtheheadlines/news/2012-04-13-endangered-species-found-in-chinese-medicines/). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/15 "2013-09-26T16:06:54Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Whenever I see some impoverished African country destroying millions of dollars worth of captured poached ivory, I find myself sadly wondering why they don’t/aren’t allowed to sell it and put the money towards something useful- I mean, like it or not, the elephants from whom the ivory was obtained are dead and destroying the ivory isn’t going to bring them back - but the money from selling it could be used for all manner of worthy or important projects, surely? I think it may be that if there were an open market for legitimate African ivory, then it would be easier for poachers to sell their illegal ivory by claiming that it came from a legitimate source. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/16 "2013-09-26T17:25:05Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Elephants are not endagered everywhere. In some South African parks there is an overpopulation of elephants, to the extent that the government has considered [culling thousands of them](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/26/environment). Which does give rise to the question of whether the resulting ivory should be saleable, or if that would encourage the demand for illegal poached ivory. I did not know that, and I’m glad to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/17 "2013-09-26T18:18:08Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > 1. are elephants really all that important ecologically-speaking? Seems like they’re a bit of a nuissance in inhabited areas? > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > My understanding is elephants are a problem in some places and so I don’t understand why there’s such a big objection to (humanely and sustainably) culling them and selling the resulting ivory. > [@ctnguy](#): > > Elephants are not endagered everywhere. In some South African parks **there is an overpopulation of elephants** , to the extent that the government has considered [culling thousands of them](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/feb/26/environment). Which does give rise to the question of whether the resulting ivory should be saleable, or if that would encourage the demand for illegal poached ivory. (bolding mine) You three will be among the first flattened to pancakes in the coming elephantpocalypse. There is an overpopulation of humans, and they are getting in the way of the elephants. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/18 "2013-09-26T23:47:30Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > (bolding mine) > You three will be among the first flattened to pancakes in the coming elephantpocalypse. There is an overpopulation of humans, and they are getting in the way of the elephants. Fortunately Australia is not noted for its elephant population. Besides, if elephants are so smart, how come they live in igloos? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/19 "2013-09-26T23:53:46Z")
I’ve never seen an elephant inside an igloo. Hold it! I know what comes next. :bleh: My version is elephants are gray so that they can hide on the sidewalks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655/20 "2013-09-27T02:17:39Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Recently have been to Tanzania. Went to the Serengeti and the Ngorongoro Crater. From what I was told, the incidents of poaching are way up. The rhinoceros is particularly in danger of extinction. The reason, according to the locals is the emergence of the Chinese middle and upper classes. They are creating a demand that wasn’t previously there. :rolleyes: Heads (among other things) up, Chinese guys: You’re wasting your money. Viagra and Cialis and Levitra have been proven to work in clinical studies. Try those. Powdered rhino horn is just . . . hair. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-market-ivory-buyers-and-the-poachers-who-fill-their-demand/669655.md?page=2)