# Black Mirror: Season 4 General Discussion (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 29, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501 "2017-12-29T09:54:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/21 "2017-12-30T22:50:56Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Really though? They don’t creatively come up with any other ideas than these few for how emerging technologies are going to ef us up? (Or minimally challenge our current ethical frameworks.) That’s pretty much Black Mirror’s entire motif, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/22 "2017-12-30T23:15:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thanks for the heads up then. With that guidance it’ll move down my queue. I’ll finish Arkangel and then leave off for a bit. > > Really though? They don’t creatively come up with any other ideas than these few for how emerging technologies are going to ef us up? (Or minimally challenge our current ethical frameworks.) Me and a bunch of other people came up with a variety of plot outlines Booker is free to use. > **[What are your plot idea for black mirror](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=769963)** > > I love this show, it is probably the best sci fi/horror TV series I’ve seen. They only did 6 episodes and the christmas special but netflix ordered 12 episodes that should be released in 2016 which means that sometime in 2016 I will be taking a day... ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/23 "2017-12-30T23:31:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thanks for the heads up then. With that guidance it’ll move down my queue. I’ll finish Arkangel and then leave off for a bit. > > Really though? They don’t creatively come up with any other ideas than these few for how emerging technologies are going to ef us up? (Or minimally challenge our current ethical frameworks.) It’s an antidote to the relentless propaganda of tech companies, keenly supported by media. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/24 "2017-12-30T23:39:22Z")
I wasn’t as blown away by this series as I have been in the past. Especially the first series. The technology just didn’t seem that interesting. Of course I enjoyed all the episodes and love the idea of the show but didn’t see anything that would make me have to tell others “you gotta see this!” ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/25 "2017-12-31T00:46:11Z")
Enjoyed this new season. One thing I found interesting is it wouldn’t have been long ago the villain in the Trek Episode would have been portrayed as the hero. Put upon, picked on Genius who’s unappreciated but has a crush on the New Girl. But here he is secretly a creep and a monster. The Black and White episode was intense. I thought people would be grumbling when it was revealed all that effort was just for a teddy bear. The last episode was basically an Anthology inside an Anthology like the Christmas episode. It felt like we had seen it before but I still enjoyed it. The dating one was a rare happy ending for this show. I liked it. The leads had great chemistry. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/26 "2017-12-31T01:01:07Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I wasn’t as blown away by this series as I have been in the past. Especially the first series. The technology just didn’t seem that interesting. > > Of course I enjoyed all the episodes Well, look, it’s not like Cristin Milioti can be _less_ than fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/27 "2017-12-31T02:41:03Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > The dating one was a rare happy ending for this show. I liked it. The leads had great chemistry. I didn’t feel that way, I felt like it was about the cheapness of digital life. Your entire existence is just a simulation for someone else’s benefit. To me about half the episodes in this new season, like \*\*DSeid \*\*says, are about tormenting digital conscious entities. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/28 "2017-12-31T03:06:30Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > The Black and White episode was intense. I thought people would be grumbling when it was revealed all that effort was just for a teddy bear. Well, I’m grumbling, because I thought it was fucking stupid. That episode, and _Crocodile,_ were the duds of the season, for me. In _Crocodile_ it was like they were just _barely_ trying to “Black-Mirror-ize” an uninteresting and formulaic story with a token technological spin. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/29 "2017-12-31T04:13:19Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > In the game created by Todd (I will never be able to think of that actor, or any character he ever plays, as being named anything other than Todd), there isn’t the slightest hint of sexuality, aggressive or otherwise. The characters literally have no genitals. This isn’t “toxic masculinity”, it’s weird, asexual, “wholesomeness” - which makes it all the more bizarre, frankly. As part of a revenge/power fantasy, he _literally_ emasculated the men, and reduced the women’s sexuality to what they could do for him (the kissing line), and you don’t think this counts as toxic masculinity? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/30 "2017-12-31T04:16:43Z")
No, I don’t think it counts, not as that term is commonly applied. The character was simply a sadist, in a way that was unrelated to gender or sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/31 "2017-12-31T04:34:24Z")
No, this is perfectly in line with toxic masculinity as it’s commonly used. Toxic masculinity includes the need to be dominant (‘the alpha male’), the valuation of violence over non-violent resolution, the devaluation of women except as receptive sex objects, etc. Are you perhaps confusing it with rape culture, which is related, but not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/32 "2017-12-31T07:08:17Z")
Those roach dog bot things were ka-reepy. As for episode 1, another vote for not toxic masculinity. Just immature nerd revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/33 "2017-12-31T08:00:04Z")
What, exactly, does toxic masculinity mean to you, if petty dominance displays, needlessly violent problem solving, and sexual assault (yes, the kissing line is sexual assault, even without genitals) aren’t part of it? Because your definition is clearly very different from the usual one, which is summed up well in [this article](https://www.alternet.org/right-wing/toxic-masculinity-killing-us-many-ways): > [@](#): > > Toxic masculinity is a specific model of manhood, geared toward dominance and control. It’s a manhood that views women and LGBT people as inferior, sees sex as an act, not of affection but domination, and which valorizes violence as the way to prove one’s self to the world. […] Toxic masculinity aspires to toughness but is, in fact, an ideology of living in fear: The fear of ever seeming soft, tender, weak, or somehow less than manly. This insecurity is perhaps the most stalwart defining feature of toxic masculinity. Yes, it’s ‘immature nerd revenge’, but that’s not even close to saying it’s not toxic masculinity - nerd culture is steeped in a thick broth of toxic masculinity. Daly’s little fantasy is a _classic_ example of toxic masculinity - he uses violence (not always realistic violence - the baleful polymorph counts) and threat of same to dominate those he feels wronged him, and adds a specifically sexual aspect to the domination of the women (PG, but still sexual), while denying his ‘inferiors’ (both male and female) the _pleasure_ of sex. He displays no emotions but anger at being defied and satisfaction in the forced adulation he feels he deserves - he is the cold, calculating Alpha Dog in the world of his creation. He doesn’t negotiate, he dominates. He doesn’t earn, he takes. He doesn’t seduce, he forces. That is toxic masculinity in a nutshell. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/34 "2017-12-31T14:12:52Z")
I wasn’t really impressed. As others have said too much reliance on the “sentient digital representation of a person” thing, it’s been done too much. Even the best of them (Hang the DJ, probably as the best of a weak lot) is worse than everything in season 3 except “Men Against Fire”. Did I miss it or was there any actual establishment within the story whether the guy in “Black Museum” did it? His daughter and wife naturally insist he’s innocent, he continued to claim it after death, but was never cleared. Of course guilty or not Rollo is still a sick villain for what he did to his “ghost”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/35 "2017-12-31T14:58:10Z")
I suppose it was necessary to keep the plot going but the idea that a DNA sample contains everything about a person up to an including today’s memories gets a serious :rolleyes:. The whole success of Nanette’s plan also relied on far too much “how fucking dumb is Robert Daly?” to work. Also the idea of someone willing to go to extreme lengths to avoid embarrassing pictures, subverted in _Shut Up and Dance_ is back here and played straight. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/36 "2017-12-31T15:21:33Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > No, I don’t think it counts, not as that term is commonly applied. The character was simply a sadist, in a way that was unrelated to gender or sexuality. …most people “commonly apply” toxic masculinity" incorrectly. IMHO it most certainly applies to the captain of the good ship Callister. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/37 "2017-12-31T15:25:51Z")
Anybody else catch the voice of the Infinity gamer at the end was Aaron Paul (Jessie Pinkman)? At least two Breaking Bad alums in the episode, counting “Todd”. Or, as I like to call him, “Fat Damon”. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/38 "2017-12-31T15:40:44Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Anybody else catch the voice of the Infinity gamer at the end was Aaron Paul (Jessie Pinkman)? At least two Breaking Bad alums in the episode, counting “Todd”. Or, as I like to call him, “Fat Damon”. Yup. I also noticed the captain was fat matt damon, but didn’t know he was in breaking bad. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/39 "2017-12-31T16:06:51Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Anybody else catch the voice of the Infinity gamer at the end was Aaron Paul (Jessie Pinkman)? At least two Breaking Bad alums in the episode, counting “Todd”. Or, as I like to call him, “Fat Damon”. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Yup. I also noticed the captain was fat matt damon, but didn’t know he was in breaking bad. I can’t help but wonder how this thread would be going if (a) Roberta Daly made simulations of co-workers to mistreat when their real-world counterparts did stuff like agree she should go with skim milk, since she could stand to lose a few pounds; and (b) we were referring to the actress as Pudgy Emma Stone. “She took away my PENIS? Stealing my penis is a red fucking line.” ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501/40 "2017-12-31T17:02:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …most people “commonly apply” toxic masculinity" incorrectly. IMHO it most certainly applies to the captain of the good ship Callister. Compare the (female) employees’ reaction to the supposedly womanizing character who would “fuck a thrown ham sandwich before it hit the ground” but turns out to be genuinely liked, is devoted to his family (at least his kid), is not a creepy kidnapper/rapist, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-mirror-season-4-general-discussion-spoilers/805501.md?page=3)