# Black on Black crime far outnumbers White on Black crime, why no discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524 "2017-09-28T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![smsaks2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@smsaks2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smsaks2000)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/1 "2017-09-28T14:56:58Z")
Here’s a link to FBI data: > **[Expanded Homicide Data Table 6](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls)** You can see that black on black murder far outstrips the number of whites murdering African Americans. Why is this not mentioned by Democrats? Why are the NFL players not taking a knee or mentioning this? Seems fishy to me that no-one says a thing about this…look a the murder rates in Chicago for African Americans and compare against white murders of African Americans. Do they only care when the crime is perpetrated by a white person? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/2 "2017-09-28T15:00:06Z")
> [@smsaks2000](#): > > Here’s a link to FBI data: > > [FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 6](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls) > > You can see that black on black murder far outstrips the number of whites murdering African Americans. > > Why is this not mentioned by Democrats? > > Why are the NFL players not taking a knee or mentioning this? > > Seems fishy to me that no-one says a thing about this…look a the murder rates in Chicago for African Americans and compare against white murders of African Americans. > > Do they only care when the crime is perpetrated by a white person? The protests are about murders by **police officers** (white or otherwise), not by white people generally. Killings by state agents are fundamentally different from other murders. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/3 "2017-09-28T15:00:14Z")
First of all, it gets brought up all the time. But people usually protest agains government action. It’s pretty odd to “protest” against criminals. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/4 "2017-09-28T15:01:42Z")
My guess is that black on black crime are acts of criminals. We expect criminals to commit crimes. What we should not expect are extrajudicial killings of blacks by police. I believe it makes more sense to protest those needless killings that the government can do something about rather than those needless killings that the government can’t do much about. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/5 "2017-09-28T15:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Do they only care when the crime is perpetrated by a white person? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the protest if this is what you think. Change this to ‘they only care when the shooting is perpetrated by a police officer’ and you will be closer to the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/6 "2017-09-28T15:05:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > My guess is that black on black crime are acts of criminals. We expect criminals to commit crimes. What we should not expect are extrajudicial killings of blacks by police. I believe it makes more sense to protest those needless killings that the government can do something about rather than those needless killings that the government can’t do much about. I would argue that the government can do something. High murder rates are associated with cultures of honor, as opposed to cultures of law. When people can’t go to the police to resolve disputes, murder becomes a tool for doing so. Higher murder rates is exactly what one would expect when a group is denied equitable treatment from, and thus access to the services of, the police. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/7 "2017-09-28T15:10:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I would argue that the government can do something. High murder rates are associated with cultures of honor, as opposed to cultures of law. When people can’t go to the police to resolve disputes, murder becomes a tool for doing so. > > Higher murder rates is exactly what one would expect when a group is denied equitable treatment from, and thus access to the services of, the police. Are you saying that the vast majority of black-on-black murders occur because the murderer feels he cannot go to the cops to resolve the issue? If so, I’d like to see something to back that up. I agree that the government, in general, might be able to change conditions to help lower the murder rate, but it might not be the police taking the lead there. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/8 "2017-09-28T15:11:28Z")
Aside from missing the point of the protests, there are PLENTY of out reach programs addressing the issue of black on black crimes. Just because you don’t see it on the news doesn’t mean no one is doing anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/9 "2017-09-28T15:12:26Z")
Yes, why is there [never](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/12/black_community_is_concerned_with_black_on_black_crime_suggesting_otherwise.html) any [discussion](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/black-people-are-not-ignoring-black-on-black-crime/378629/) of this! ---
**Author:** ![smsaks2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@smsaks2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smsaks2000)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/10 "2017-09-28T15:13:38Z")
[http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#](http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/11 "2017-09-28T15:17:41Z")
I’d also hazard a guess that most people commit crimes closer to where they live and quite often the victims are acquainted with the perpetrators. White on white crime probably far outnumbers black on white crime. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/12 "2017-09-28T15:17:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you saying that the vast majority of black-on-black murders occur because the murderer feels he cannot go to the cops to resolve the issue? If so, I’d like to see something to back that up. > > I agree that the government, in general, might be able to change conditions to help lower the murder rate, but it might not be the police taking the lead there. I don’t know about “vast majority”, but yes, cultures of honor are more violent, and are transformed into cultures of law by a “civilizing process” in which state power trumps all else. It’s detailed in _The Better Angels of Our Nature_. I don’t have access to my copy at the moment, but [here’s a NYT snippet:](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/books/review/the-better-angels-of-our-nature-by-steven-pinker-book-review.html?mcubz=0) > [@](#): > > Consistent with this view, Pinker argues that at least part of the reason for the regional differences in American homicide rates is that people in the South are less likely to accept the state’s monopoly on force. Instead, a tradition of self-help justice and a “culture of honor” sanctions retaliation when one is insulted or mistreated. Statistics bear this out — the higher homicide rate in the South is due to quarrels that turn lethal, not to more killings during armed robberies — and experiments show that even today Southerners respond more strongly to insults than Northerners.) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/13 "2017-09-28T15:18:54Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > White on white crime probably far outnumbers black on white crime. It does, per the report linked to in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/14 "2017-09-28T15:20:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you saying that the vast majority of black-on-black murders occur because the murderer feels he cannot go to the cops to resolve the issue? It doesn’t have to be the vast majority. There’s some level of homicide (which is almost always intra-racial, among white people too) that happens among humans. There will always be jealous boyfriends and armed robbery. The question is why there are _disproportionate_ black murderers. That difference is explained by things like greater involvement in the black market as well as the historical–and to some extent contemporary, through poor resources for things like witness protection–under-policing of black murder. The evidence to support that latter theory takes a bunch of different forms including: (1) the actual history of policing black communities in the history of the emergence and conduct of neighborhood gangs; (2) sociological evidence showing this phenomenon happening all over the world; (3) patchy data and anecdotes looking into who are the perpetrators and victims of homicide in high-homicide neighborhoods, demonstrating the tit-for-tat quality; (4) sociological study of why black victims and witnesses are reluctant to talk to the police to help solve crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/15 "2017-09-28T15:31:02Z")
> [@smsaks2000](#): > > [http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#](http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler#) Unarmed black men are far more likely to be killed by police than unarmed white men, eh? Good to know. That was your point, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/16 "2017-09-28T15:31:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know about “vast majority”, but yes, cultures of honor are more violent, and are transformed into cultures of law by a “civilizing process” in which state power trumps all else. It’s detailed in _The Better Angels of Our Nature_. I don’t have access to my copy at the moment, but [here’s a NYT snippet:](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/books/review/the-better-angels-of-our-nature-by-steven-pinker-book-review.html?mcubz=0) Yes, but is that what we are dealing with here? Or, is it a situation that poverty increases the likelihood of entering into crime, and poverty is the root cause, not a “culture of honor”. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/17 "2017-09-28T15:33:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, but is that what we are dealing with here? Or, is it a situation that poverty increases the likelihood of entering into crime, and poverty is the root cause, not a “culture of honor”. You might find [this](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/opinion/murder-rate-crime.html?_r=0) interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/18 "2017-09-28T15:34:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, but is that what we are dealing with here? Or, is it a situation that poverty increases the likelihood of entering into crime, and poverty is the root cause, not a “culture of honor”. Both can be true, depending on the correlation between poverty and murder amongst different ethnic groups - data I don’t have on hand. If we’re talking about what the government can do to reduce murder, fighting poverty can go on the list as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/19 "2017-09-28T15:38:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You might find [this](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/opinion/murder-rate-crime.html?_r=0) interesting. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/20 "2017-09-28T15:41:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yes, why is there [never](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/12/black_community_is_concerned_with_black_on_black_crime_suggesting_otherwise.html) any [discussion](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/black-people-are-not-ignoring-black-on-black-crime/378629/) of this! Thank you for linking Ta-Nehisi Coates’s Atlantic blogging on this topic. (The second link in RP’s comment.) Coates did some great writing on this topic back in the day. I think this piece is particularly strong: > **[Why Don't Black People Protest 'Black-on-Black Violence'?](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/04/why-dont-black-people-protest-black-on-black-violence/255329/)** > > Juan Williams asks a question that he could readily answer. Read the whole thing. Coates is responding to Juan Williams making a similar point to the OP’s, back in 2012, and cites many then-recent examples of black people organizing and marching against black-on-black violence. Then he drops some knowledge: “I came up in the era of Self-Destruction. I wrote a book largely about violence in black communities. The majority of my public experiences today are about addressing violence in black communities. I can not tell you how scared black parents are for their kids, and whatever modest success of my book experienced, most of it hinged on the great worry that black mothers feel for their sons. There is a kind of sincere black person who really would like to see even more outrage about violence in black communities. I don’t think outrage will do it at this point, but I respect the sincere feeling. And then there are pundits who write more than they read, and talk more than they listen, and prefer an easy creationism to a Google search.” We should all think, listen, and learn a bit more before we spout off about what other people are or aren’t saying or doing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524.md?page=2)