# Black on Black crime far outnumbers White on Black crime, why no discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524 "2017-09-28T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/41 "2017-09-29T16:24:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No doubt. Less poverty=less crime. What you said is “government fighting poverty”= less crime. You supported the first but not the second. If you look at the numbers, you may find that violent crime has increased in Black neighborhoods since the government started fighting poverty. I meant “government _successfully_ fighting poverty”. Apologies if that was not clear. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/42 "2017-09-29T16:54:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I meant “government _successfully_ fighting poverty”. Apologies if that was not clear. Yeah that was kind of the problem. Not only did they not successfully fight poverty, they created perverse incentives that undermined societal structures and that contributed to an increase in crime in Black communities. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/43 "2017-09-29T16:58:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The descendants of the people who were horsewhipped, for starters. I’m not seeing the connection, unless wecarevtalking post statue controversy. Also, confederate generals do not equal horsewhippers. I would think ones experience inside the courtroom would be a more powerful factor. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/44 "2017-09-29T16:59:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Particularly when the descendants of the people doing the horsewhipping continue to openly profess support for the practice. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/45 "2017-09-29T17:04:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If the statues are unimportant and meaningless, then there’s no problem with removing them, right? > > It obviously doesn’t work like that. People are out marching in the streets because they believe what the statues symbolize is important. But if you think your side is justified in demonstrating for one side of the argument, you can’t tell people that the other side is trivial. They believe what the statues symbolize is just as important as you do. I’m not pro statue. But I am anti ridiculous rhetoric which is so common in this Trump world. 2 years ago those dumb statues were something that people passed by but didn’t pay any attention to. The idea that a rational person of normal intelligence would think a statue would decrease their chance of receiving justice in a courtroom is silly. Again, should an Irish be afraid of getting justice in England because of Oliver Cromwell statues? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/46 "2017-09-29T17:09:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yeah that was kind of the problem. Not only did they not successfully fight poverty, they created perverse incentives that undermined societal structures and that contributed to an increase in crime in Black communities. Be that as it may, unless you hold that successfully fighting poverty is impossible for a government (as I suspect you do), it remains true that, as I said, “if we’re talking about what the government can do to reduce murder, fighting poverty can go on the list as well”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/47 "2017-09-29T17:23:20Z")
No, two years ago the statues were something that _you_ passed by but didn’t pay any attention to. > [@](#): > > Also, confederate generals do not equal horsewhippers. Some of them were. And the dedication speech for at least one of those statues spoke explicitly of the “great joy” in whipping an uppity black woman. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/48 "2017-09-29T17:41:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, two years ago the statues were something that _you_ passed by but didn’t pay any attention to. > > Some of them were. And the dedication speech for at least one of those statues spoke explicitly of the “great joy” in whipping an uppity black woman. If we could get into the way back machine and go to 2009 and if we could get pics of any five confederate statues and conduct a survey asking 1)who is this person. 2)what war did he fight in 3) what did he do to deserve a statue; what do you think the result would be? The horsewhipping guy should be horsewhipped himself but one moron doesn’t translate into multiple morons without atribution. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/49 "2017-09-29T18:05:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Be that as it may, unless you hold that successfully fighting poverty is impossible for a government (as I suspect you do), it remains true that, as I said, “if we’re talking about what the government can do to reduce murder, fighting poverty can go on the list as well”. Oh. No, that isn’t true. Government fighting poverty has actually contributed to the increase in the murder rate, so putting “government not getting involved in poverty fighting” on the list makes more sense. Put another way, poverty was decreasing at a faster rate before government started fighting it. If they hadn’t started fighting it, it makes sense to assume that trend would have continued and poverty would be lower today in that alternate scenario than it is today. If your less poverty=less crime claim stands, and I agree, then we would have less murder today. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/50 "2017-09-29T18:11:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Oh. No, that isn’t true. Government fighting poverty has actually contributed to the increase in the murder rate, so putting “government not getting involved in poverty fighting” on the list makes more sense. > > Put another way, poverty was decreasing at a faster rate before government started fighting it. If they hadn’t started fighting it, it makes sense to assume that trend would have continued and poverty would be lower today in that alternate scenario than it is today. If your less poverty=less crime claim stands, and I agree, then we would have less murder today. Do you think we’d have less fire if the government stopped fighting fires? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/51 "2017-09-29T18:21:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think we’d have less fire if the government stopped fighting fires? No because they know how to fight fires. This could be a sidetrack, and I’m not an expert FYI. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/52 "2017-09-29T18:29:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Oh. No, that isn’t true. Government fighting poverty has actually contributed to the increase in the murder rate, so putting “government not getting involved in poverty fighting” on the list makes more sense. > > Put another way, poverty was decreasing at a faster rate before government started fighting it. If they hadn’t started fighting it, it makes sense to assume that trend would have continued and poverty would be lower today in that alternate scenario than it is today. If your less poverty=less crime claim stands, and I agree, then we would have less murder today. I get it, you believe that governments can’t fight poverty, or at least not without horrible side effects. That’s not a debate I particularly want to spend my time on right now, as the poverty angle was **John Mace** ’s, not mine. I’d rather focus on policing. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/53 "2017-09-29T18:33:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think we’d have less fire if the government stopped fighting fires? If the government was fighting fires with gasoline, yes. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/54 "2017-09-30T23:29:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > High murder rates are associated with cultures of honor, as opposed to cultures of law. Are cultures of honour also associated with more police killings? Is that much of a factor in the current situation in the US? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/55 "2017-10-01T00:09:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think we’d have less fire if the government stopped fighting fires? Actually we might have less severe fires in the long term if nature could clear the undergrowth. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/56 "2017-10-01T00:13:11Z")
Because it makes more sense to protest against the government regarding something that the government’s agents are directly responsible for. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/57 "2017-10-02T02:46:26Z")
> [@smsaks2000](#): > > Here’s a link to FBI data: > > [FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 6](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls) > > You can see that black on black murder far outstrips the number of whites murdering African Americans. > > Why is this not mentioned by Democrats? > > Why are the NFL players not taking a knee or mentioning this? > > Seems fishy to me that no-one says a thing about this…look a the murder rates in Chicago for African Americans and compare against white murders of African Americans. > > Do they only care when the crime is perpetrated by a white person? This is a now ancient trick argument. Entirely based on intentionally misusing the statistics involved. Simplest explanation: the real concern in this area, is with state-supported race-based crime. Black on black crime, and white on white crime, don’t qualify as state-supported racist attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/58 "2017-10-02T13:24:41Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Are cultures of honour also associated with more police killings? Is that much of a factor in the current situation in the US? I don’t know. I can look into it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/59 "2017-10-02T14:13:59Z")
> [@smsaks2000](#): > > Here’s a link to FBI data: > > [FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 6](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls) > > You can see that black on black murder far outstrips the number of whites murdering African Americans. > > Why is this not mentioned by Democrats? > > Why are the NFL players not taking a knee or mentioning this? > > Seems fishy to me that no-one says a thing about this…look a the murder rates in Chicago for African Americans and compare against white murders of African Americans. > > Do they only care when the crime is perpetrated by a white person? Pretty much. That’s the only way they can get any serious race-baiting done. If the NFL players were truly serious about “taking a stand”, they’d hike their collective asses up to Chicago and try to do something about the wholesale slaughter of black people by black people up there. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/60 "2017-10-02T14:46:58Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Pretty much. That’s the only way they can get any serious race-baiting done. > > If the NFL players were truly serious about “taking a stand”, they’d hike their collective asses up to Chicago and try to do something about the wholesale slaughter of black people by black people up there. Like I said before, the two issues are related. Why do you supposed there was so much murder on the [Western frontier](https://cjrc.osu.edu/research/interdisciplinary/hvd/homicide-rates-american-west), relative to the Eastern US? And it wasn’t protests of murderers that brought the rates down, it was the growth of powerful and effective governments, with a monopoly on force. Again, what we’re seeing in places like Chicago is exactly what we’d expect to see from communities that don’t have access to law enforcement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524.md?page=4)