# Black on Black crime far outnumbers White on Black crime, why no discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524 "2017-09-28T14:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/81 "2017-10-09T21:13:09Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Just to be clear, the two options for police are (a) treat every person as non-threatening, including armed and violent criminals, or (b) shoot everyone they see, just in case? Well, (a) is what’s being demanded by the race activists because (b) is the irrational fear articulated by the race activists. I don’t see either of your options as either possible or reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/82 "2017-10-09T22:07:12Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > It’s much more about class[than race](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States) > > mc I do not agree. Poverty levels do not explain the disproportionate murder rates between the races (especially in the age range I mentioned). The [**Kaiser Family Foundation**](https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=white--black--hispanic&selectedRows=%7B%22wrapups%22:%7B%22united-states%22:%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D) puts the poverty rates for the races at 9% for Whites, 20% for Hispanics and 22% for Blacks. Using the [**CDC’s WISQUARS Fatal Injury Reports**](https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html) for 2015: White non-Hispanic males 15-24 experienced 481 murders in a total population of 12,578,159 for a raw per-cap rate of 3.82/100K. Hispanic males 15-24 experienced 809 murders in a total population of 4,912,223 for a raw per-cap rate of 16.47/100K (4.3X Whites) Black males 15-24 experienced 2,790 murders in a total population of 3,726,552 for a raw per-cap rate of 74.87/100K (19.6X Whites, 4.55X Hispanics). Sorry, the Black murder rate difference at 19.6X the White rate can not be explained away as being caused by the difference in the poverty rate @ 2.44X. I’m sure there is an explanation, but poverty ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/83 "2017-10-09T22:12:30Z")
Of course black on black crime is discussed and discussed constantly. Where? In the black communities themselves. Is it their fault that the media, both conservative and liberal, usually ignore their protests and demonstrations against the drug runners and gangs surrounding them? These gangstas are their children. Their children are dying at a frightening rate, slaughtering each other in the streets. Discuss it? These poor folk are living it daily. Don’t you think they want to discuss it with people that could actually help do something about it, politicians and journalists? But those politicians and journalists are more interested in the evil police killing blacks stories. And OK, they should be interested in those stories and they should be investigated thoroughly. But it wouldn’t hurt them to pay a little attention too to the murder of young blacks by other young blacks. These young black men should be going to college and pursuing careers instead of dying like animals in the gutters. That could be achieved if politicians of both persuasions spent just a little more of their time helping these communities instead of attacking or defending the police. Someone should remind them of LBJ’s words that it is possible to fart and chew gum at the same time ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/84 "2017-10-09T22:48:52Z")
> [@Abatis](#): > > I do not agree. . . . Well many others do agee from [Why We Never Talk About Black-on-Black Crime: An Answer to White America’s Most Pressing Question](Why We Never Talk About Black-on-Black Crime: An Answer to White America’s Most Pressing Question) > [@](#): > > Both sociologists and criminologists agree that violent crime is a complex socioeconomic phenomenon. Generally speaking, research shows that poor people commit the most crime: According to the [Bureau of Justice Statistics](https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137), during the period from 2008 through 2012, “persons in poor households at or below the federal poverty level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households (16.9 per 1,000) … The overall pattern of poor persons having the highest rates of violent victimization was consistent for both whites and blacks.” > [@](#): > > According to the [FBI’s uniform crime-reporting data for 2016](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43), 90.1 percent of black victims of homicide were killed by other blacks, while 83.5 percent of whites were killed by other whites. While no life is inconsequential, the statistical evidence shows that—just as for blacks when it comes to black-on-black crime—whites are mostly victimized by other whites, with the vast majority of white murders committed by whites. This is because most victims of crime personally know their assailants. And while this is a truth across racial boundaries, no one ever talks about “white-on-white crime.” > [@](#): > > It is a fact that most murders are committed by whites, according to the [most recent FBI stats available](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls). It is a fact (at least for 2016 and 2015) that a black man was less likely to commit a violent crime of any kind than a police officer was to kill an unarmed person. ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/85 "2017-10-10T00:44:36Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Well many others do agee None of your ‘proofs’ even speak to what I am arguing and I find the misrepresentations in your source reprehensible. First off, I do not dispute that poor people commit more crime; I argue that you are wrong attributing to poverty, the wide disparity in the murder rate between the races. Your source says as much, “_persons in poor households at or below the federal poverty level (FPL) (39.8 per 1,000) had more than double the rate of violent victimization as persons in high-income households_”. To me, “double the rate” does not equate with the difference shown in the murder rates. If we look at the simple stats for 2015 divided on race, including both sexes and all ages we see: All non-Hispanic Whites experienced 5,222 murders in a total population of 201,242,281 for a raw per-cap rate of 2.59/100K. All Blacks experienced 9,173 murders in a total population of 44,863,196 for a raw per-cap rate of 20.45/100K Can a 2.44X difference in the poverty rate between Whites and Blacks and/or a 2X difference between rich and poor in victimization, really explain a 7.89X difference in the murder rate? Now for the stupid stuff from your source . . . > [@mikecurtis](#): > > It is a fact that most murders are committed by whites No, it isn’t a fact at all. The link to the FBI is a chart that only includes data when the race of the victim or perpetrator is known. Just looking at the numbers we know this isn’t the total number of crimes so, the only conclusion we can draw is that there’s better reporting by police when the perp is White. Nobody disputes that 90%+/- of murder is intraracial . . . Just looking at the number of murder victims by race and applying the 90% “rule” shows that since most murders are of Blacks, most murderers must also be Black – and by a very, very wide margin. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > It is a fact (at least for 2016 and 2015) that a black man was less likely to commit a violent crime of any kind than a police officer was to kill an unarmed person. This is ridiculous. The [**Washington Post’s Police Shooting database**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/) shows 94 unarmed people were killed by police in 2015. Estimates of sworn, active duty police officers come in around 765,000. So, 94 / 7.65 = 12.15/100K raw rate – for every 100,000 police officers, 12 unarmed people are shot. Setting aside “violent crime of any kind” and just looking at the murder of Blacks, there were 9,173 murders of Blacks in 2015. 90% of 9173 is 8256 Black perps and let’s be generous and pull out another 10% for female murderers, 8256 - 826 = 7430 Black murders by Black male offenders. Again, the Black population is 44,863,196 so, 7430 / 448.63196 = 16.56/100K Black male murderers. 16 \> 12 Of course there are murder perps who have multiple bodies on them but given we still need to wrap in murders of other races _and_ rape, kidnapping, carjacking, robbery, attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, aggravated assault etc, etc, etc, (because the criteria is, “violent crime of any kind”, and it is evident what your source presents as “fact” is actually absolute, unmitigated BS. . ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/86 "2017-10-10T14:18:07Z")
> [@Abatis](#): > > No, it isn’t a fact at all. The link to the FBI is a chart that only includes data when the race of the victim or perpetrator is known. Just looking at the numbers we know this isn’t the total number of crimes so, the only conclusion we can draw is that there’s better reporting by police when the perp is White. That would not be the most logical conclusion. In fact, it’s not even in the top twenty. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/87 "2017-10-10T16:37:24Z")
> [@Abatis](#): > > . . . absolute, unmitigated BS. You dont like that cite? Lets go to the UK and the [Edinburgh Study of Youth Transitions and Crime](https://archive.is/XXsXw#selection-487.20-487.66). the black population of Edinburgh is approx 1% so race isn’t a factor: > [@](#): > > **Poverty, Inequality and Justice** > Using data from the Edinburgh Study of Youth Transitions and Crime, the Edinburgh university researchers found that poverty is a strong driver of violent offending amongst young people. However, systems of youth and adult justice, far from tackling violence and lifting young people out of poverty, serve instead to entrench poverty, thereby reproducing the very conditions in which violence can flourish. How about ancient greece? > [@Aristotle](#): > > Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime. And which “populations” did you cherrypick these stats from? > [@Abatis](#): > > White non-Hispanic males 15-24 experienced 481 murders in a total population of 12,578,159 for a raw per-cap rate of 3.82/100K. > > Hispanic males 15-24 experienced 809 murders in a total population of 4,912,223 for a raw per-cap rate of 16.47/100K (4.3X Whites) > > Black males 15-24 experienced 2,790 murders in a total population of 3,726,552 for a raw per-cap rate of 74.87/100K (19.6X Whites, 4.55X Hispanics). There are approx 220 million whites and hispanics 39 million blacks [and .](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States) . > [@](#): > > the percentage of individuals in each racial demographic arrested for murder in 2013 was: > > ``` > 0.01% of Black or African American population > > ``` Which means that any time you come across a black person they are 99.99% probably not a murderer! So to answer your question: > [@](#): > > Are they really expected to treat every person as non-threatening? **YES!** ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/88 "2017-10-11T05:49:45Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > You dont like that cite? Huh? I didn’t like a lie being presented as “fact”. I don’t know what you are replying to, what you quoted was directed to a specific statement. I have said that I do not dispute that poor people commit more crimes, why you keep posting making the same point is puzzling. None of what you have posted has explained the 7.9X disparity in the murder rate between the races. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > And which “populations” did you cherrypick these stats from? I chose those age categories because my original post in this thread was about police interactions with young Blacks and the disproportionate level of criminal violence in that group compared to any other. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > There are approx > 220 million whites and hispanics > 39 million blacks Unless otherwise noted I use the CDC’s numbers for 2015 for my figuring, as split out in their [**WISQARS mortality app**](https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html): Total US population: 321,418,820 Non-Hispanic Whites: 201,242,281 (62.6%) Hispanics: 56,592,793 (17.6%) Blacks: 44,863,196 (13.9%) > [@mikecurtis](#): > > [and](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States) > > > [@](#): > > > > the percentage of individuals in each racial demographic arrested for murder in 2013 was: > > 0.01% of Black or African American population But that does not speak to the distribution according to population which is where the disparity I keep mentioning (and you keep ignoring) is noted. Your link [**“and”**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States) shows this in the actual arrests: ``` Black or African Americans 4,379 = 52.2% White Americans (including Hispanic Americans) 3,799 = 45.3% ``` Blacks comprise 13.9% of the population, Whites and Hispanics comprise 80.2% of the population. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > Which means that any time you come across a black person they are 99.99% probably not a murderer! In all honesty, I’m not concerned with females and older people of any race. How about my original question about Black males 15-24? > [@mikecurtis](#): > > So to answer your question: > > **YES!** Well, one segment of the population has demonstrated a level of violent criminality that is exceptionally disproportionate to its actual representation in the population. As Jesse Jackson lamented, “There is nothing more painful to me … than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery, then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” And back to your “fact” that I said was “absolute, unmitigated BS”: [INDENT]**“It is a fact (at least for 2016 and 2015) that a black man was less likely to commit a violent crime of any kind than a police officer was to kill an unarmed person.”**[/INDENT] I showed the rate of a police officer shooting an unarmed person to be 12/100K. “94 unarmed people were killed by police in 2015. Estimates of sworn, active duty police officers come in around 765,000. So, 94 / 7.65 = 12.15/100K raw rate – for every 100,000 police officers, 12 unarmed people are shot.” Turns out, the FBI has a stat for arrests for violent crime broken out for race. [**Table 43A for 2015**](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43) page shows 140,543 Blacks were arrested for violent crimes. [**Table 42 for 2015**](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-42) shows that for violent crime arrests (Murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault), the average breakdown by sex for 2015 was 87% male. I’ll be overly conservative and knock of 20% and say it is 67% male; 140,543 X .67 = 94,164 violent crime arrests for Black males in 2015. 94164 / 448.63 = 210 arrests per 100,000 Black males. So, I’m revising my earlier statement just working off murders. The “fact” that “_a black man was less likely to commit a violent crime of any kind than a police officer was to kill an unarmed person_” is wrong (and I’m being generous here) by 1700% – 12 \< 210. So, as I said, ridiculous, absolute unmitigated BS! . ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/89 "2017-10-11T09:23:39Z")
> [@Abatis](#): > > . . .I don’t know what you are replying to, what you quoted was directed to a specific statement. > > I have said that I do not dispute that poor people commit more crimes, why you keep posting making the same point is puzzling. . . Because you keep making the same error. Poor people are more likely to commit violent crimes, not black people. If cops should be wary of anyone, it’s poor young males, and you can’t tell if someone is poor by their skin color. > [@](#): > > But that does not speak to the distribution according to population which is where the disparity I keep mentioning (and you keep ignoring) is noted. > > Your link “and” shows this in the actual arrests: > > Black or African Americans 4,379 = 52.2% > White Americans (including Hispanic Americans) 3,799 = 45.3% > > Blacks comprise 13.9% of the population, Whites and Hispanics comprise 80.2% of the population. Just because blacks are arrested and convicted of crimes at a higher rate than whites doesn’t necessarily mean they actually commit crimes at a higher rate > [@](#): > > There is a common conservative narrative that indicates the disproportionate incarceration of black people is not the result of systemic racism, but rather of shortcomings within the black community. > > It is also common to hear the supposedly neutral statement that “black people commit more crimes than white people.” This “fact” is used to justify a belief that black people have a natural criminal propensity, or that a “culture of violence” is to blame for problems faced by black people in America. > > Black people make up roughly 13% of the United States population, and white people make up 64%. Black people make up 40% of the prison population, and white people 39%. Therefore, even though there are roughly five times as many white people as black people in this country, blacks and whites are incarcerated in equal numbers. But the fact that black people are incarcerated five times as frequently as white people does not mean black people commit five times as many crimes. Here’s why: > > (1) If a black person and a white person each commit a crime, the black person is more likely to be arrested. This is due in part to the fact that black people are more heavily policed. . . > > (2) When black people are arrested for a crime, they are convicted more often than white people arrested for the same crime. . . > > (3) When black people are convicted of a crime, they are more likely to be sentenced to incarceration compared to whites convicted of the same crime. . . > > Regardless of the exact factors behind the incarceration gap, it is not some neutral, statistical fact that black people commit more crime. The gap is the result of numerous interacting factors, not the least of which is racism. Explanations of the incarceration gap as a result of black criminal propensity or insular cultural deficiencies are critically flawed, and by definition racist. [https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st\_b\_8078586.html](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-farbota/black-crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html) Finally: > [@](#): > > According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,220,300 adults were incarcerated in US federal and state prisons, and county jails in 2013 – about 0.91% of adults (1 in 110) in the U.S. resident population. Additionally, 4,751,400 adults in 2013 (1 in 51) were on probation or on parole. > **[Incarceration in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States)** > > Incarceration in the United States is one of the primary means of punishment for crime in the United States. In 2021, over five million people were under supervision by the criminal justice system, with nearly two million people incarcerated in state or federal prisons and local jails. The United States has the largest known prison population in the world. It has 5% of the world’s population while having 20% of the world’s incarcerated persons. China, with four times more inhabitants, has f Dr... So of ALL Americans, approx 2.7% of adults are cirminals of any kind, and approx 10% of those are for violent crimes, which makes it 0.27%. So Even if we play your little game and say that blacks commit crimes at 5x the rate of whites, that still only get us to 1.35% of the population. If half of those are male, we’re up to 2.7%, and if 1/3 of those are age 18 - 24, we’re up to 8.1% of black males age 18-24 are violent criminals. So 91.8% of the of the adult black male population is not a violent criminal and should not be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/90 "2017-10-11T12:03:43Z")
> [@Abatis](#): > > > [@Vinyl Turnip](#): > > > > Just to be clear, the two options for police are (a) treat every person as non-threatening, including armed and violent criminals, or (b) shoot everyone they see, just in case? > > Well, (a) is what’s being demanded by the race activists because (b) is the irrational fear articulated by the race activists. Who is asking to treat armed and violent criminals as non-threatening? 😕 The protests are about non-armed, non-threatening people being shot by law enforcement, as we’ve seen in several recent videos. It’s weird to me that I even need to type this out, but the desire by some to misconstrue what is a very simple message seems to know no bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Abatis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@Abatis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abatis)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/91 "2017-10-11T14:19:01Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Because you keep making the same error. > Poor people are more likely to commit violent crimes, not black people. Unless you can prove an error in my math my premise is correct, that young Black men are far an away more violent than any cohort in the population. If the entire nation were murdered at the same rate as Black men aged 15-24 (74.87/100K), there would be over 240,000 murders a year. 2,790 Black men aged 15-24 were murdered in 2015, if they experienced the same homicide rate as the general non-Hispanic White rate (2.59/100K), only 97 would have died. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Time\_For\_Fishing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f9ae1b/32.png) [@No\_Time\_For\_Fishing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Time_For_Fishing)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/92 "2017-11-20T22:54:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Violent crime disproportionately affects poor people and poor communities.](https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137) Therefore, fewer poor people & fewer poor communities = less murder. > > There’s also a strong correlation between [income inequality and violent crime](https://financesonline.com/how-income-inequality-affects-crime-rates/). According to your link: “The highest homicide levels are found in the Americas and Africa region, with the lowest homicide levels generally in countries in Europe” and in the Americas citizens of African descent commit a disproportionate percentage of homicides , perhaps the problem is with Africans not Income Inequality. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/93 "2017-11-21T02:38:06Z")
> [@No\_Time\_For\_Fishing](#): > > According to your link: > “The highest homicide levels are found in the Americas and Africa region, with the lowest homicide levels generally in countries in Europe” and in the Americas citizens of African descent commit a disproportionate percentage of homicides , perhaps the problem is with Africans not Income Inequality. There **is no genetic basis for race** and your claim depends on it. Race is simply not a biological differentiator. [http://physanth.org/about/position-statements/biological-aspects-race/](http://physanth.org/about/position-statements/biological-aspects-race/) Race is purely a social construct; that does not mean that the effects of the social construct are not very real. Money is also a social construct, and effects everything that we do. If you have even a shred of evidence to back up your claim, please provide it. But it is **IMPOSSIBLE** for it to be a problem with _Africans_ outside of the social realities, restrictions and culture we have built around the myth of _race_. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/94 "2017-11-21T02:54:12Z")
> [@No\_Time\_For\_Fishing](#): > > According to your link: > “The highest homicide levels are found in the Americas and Africa region, with the lowest homicide levels generally in countries in Europe” and in the Americas citizens of African descent commit a disproportionate percentage of homicides , perhaps the problem is with Africans not Income Inequality. How does that argue against poverty being the main cause? If we’re looking at a continental level, Africa and South America are comparitively poor continents, where you can still find some countries so impoverished and lawless that they’re even used as examples for comparing the US homicide rate. Then if we’re looking internally at the US, yes, I would expect all else being equal that the children of slaves, who only achieved full civil rights a couple generations ago, in a country with some of the worse income inequality and social mobility in the developed world, to have a much higher poverty rate still, and they do. ---
**Author:** ![Tempe\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tempe_jeff/32/7328_2.png) [@Tempe\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tempe_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/95 "2017-11-21T03:13:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Here’s another thought: Suppose you have a dispute with your neighbor. And suppose that the local courthouse has a statue out front that’s literally dedicated to the joy of horsewhipping people who look like you. Are you going to be inclined to think your dispute will be resolved fairly in that courthouse? This is the culture that we’re dealing with, here. And it’s the same people who complain about how nobody is paying attention to the culture, who also insist on perpetuating it. I am sure, you have a cite for the oppressed Murderers doing it out of a sense of moral outrage that, there is no other justice to be had. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/96 "2017-11-21T09:58:27Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Because you keep making the same error. > Poor people are more likely to commit violent crimes, not black people. > If cops should be wary of anyone, it’s poor young males, and you can’t tell if someone is poor by their skin color. No, but if black people are disproportionately likely to be poor, and poor people are disproportionately likely to commit violent crimes, black people are disproportionately likely to commit violent crime. > [@](#): > > Just because blacks are arrested and convicted of crimes at a higher rate than whites doesn’t necessarily mean they actually commit crimes at a higher rate Well what metric would you propose we use? How _should_ we go about determining this? My go-to analysis on this issue is [this SSC article](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/25/race-and-justice-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/), which goes on a pretty deep dive into the statistics and studies available, and comes back with: There seems to be a strong racial bias in capital punishment and a moderate racial bias in sentence length and decision to jail. There is ambiguity over the level of racial bias, depending on whose studies you want to believe and how strictly you define “racial bias”, in police stops, police shootings in certain jurisdictions, and arrests for minor drug offenses. There seems to be **little or no racial bias in arrests for serious violent crime** , police shootings in most jurisdictions, **prosecutions, or convictions**. Bolding mine. Looking at total prison population is actually pretty problematic based on these studies. But looking at arrest and conviction? There’s not nearly as much evidence supporting the claim of racial bias in those areas. In fact, the data shows the reverse: Conviction rates of blacks have generally found to be less than than conviction rates of whites (Burke and Turk 1975, Petersilia 1983, Wilbanks 1987). I don’t know why so many of these studies are from the 70s and 80s, but a more recent Bureau of Justice Statistics finds that 66% of accused blacks get prosecuted compared to 69% of accused whites; 75% of prosecuted blacks get convicted compared to 78% of prosecuted whites. […] The optimistic interpretation is that there definitely isn’t any sign of bias against black people here. The pessimistic interpretation is that this would be consistent with more frivolous cases involving black people coming to the courts (ie police arrest blacks at the drop of a hat, and prosecutors and juries end up with a bunch of stupid cases without any evidence that they throw out). …But that caveat sorta falls flat, because earlier in the analysis, we’ve already established that arrest rates didn’t appear racially biased. This is not the right place to apply the “racism fucks with the data” argument. ---
**Author:** ![POSTTOWN1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ab992/32.png) [@POSTTOWN1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/POSTTOWN1978)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/97 "2017-11-23T01:56:50Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > This is a big topic of conversation in the African American community, at least to my understanding. Many African Americans are uncomfortable calling the police and this has been implicated as a cause of the high crime rates. > > What are you going to do, call the cops and snitch? They just going to beat you up, yo. actually this means that black crime is even higher than the numbers show black crime is super super high compared to other races if u study it i have many years for ex black areas have 13 times the murder rate of a white area ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2017, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/98 "2017-11-23T09:50:00Z")
And why isn’t anyone studying white-on-basic-grammar violence? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524/99 "2017-11-26T13:55:22Z")
Looking back, I think understanding poverty as the main driver of crime gained the majority view in the UK in the early 1980s - more and more evidence came to light and it all seems perfectly obvious now. You’d think all those thousands of people transported to the colonies 150 years earlier for petty theft and whatnot might have triggered some investigation, but seemingly not. If that was level 1, then - imo - level 2 is addressing the consequences of generational one-parent families, often a multi-generational household without any reliable/positive male influence ever. This can be devastating, especially for boys. It’s particularly tricky because it means state involvement and a lot of funding - you arr basically assisting families on how to better parent. Has to be done sensitively. It’s impossible to state how fundamental this need is - it is difficult to conceive of never having experienced a conventional family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-on-black-crime-far-outnumbers-white-on-black-crime-why-no-discussion/797524.md?page=4)