Broomstick I like your post.
When I was younger, and living in South Carolina, I would refer to myself as “octaroon” just to be annoying. And because, as you put it, any amount of color counts. Not that I would deny any of my heritage, even if I could, but you’re right. In our past, any amount of any heritage was denied when one was overwhelmingly present.
Very well said.
Just a little input from Unca Cece:
Celestina: I respect your choosing to identify yourself as black and identify most closely or entirely with that part of your cultural heritage. I would appreciate it if you would do me the same courtesy. When you dismiss the way I have chosen to identify myself (note my post, where I refer to myself neither as mixed nor blue), and say, twice, that it is a fact that being mixed equals being black, you disrespect my choice of ethnic identity.
There are people of mixed ethnic background who choose to identify themselves in other ways than black. I am one of them. I am not ashamed of that part of my heritage, but I do not choose to identify with it more closely than with any other.
No matter how many times you say it, it isn’t a fact. There are blacks who do not consider themselves mixed, and there are people of mixed ethnic heritage who do not consider themselves black. Your choice of ethnic identity, no matter how profound the effect it may have on your life, is not the truth for everyone.
Broomstick: Well done.
I can empathize. I heard enough racist statements from the whites (none of whom considered him/herself a racist, of course) I grew up around to last a lifetime. My own sicilian, native, black, and pan-european (in that order) mix often causes people to confuse me for hispanic. I’ve even been admonished on more than one occassion for denying my heritage because I don’t speak Spanish (often followed-up by even more rude comments from me).
Hello reality. Something I’ve got to help understand and manage. My daughter is half white trash half Chinese. Highly likely she will be in for experiences I never had, and I hope I can help her through them.
Number Six, my apologies if my post sounded dismissive of you or disrespectful of how you identify yourself. That was not my intent. [sigh] Like I said with Heloise, you have every right to define yourself as you see fit. I’m not judging you or trying to tell you what to do because I don’t have time for that, and I don’t really care to do that. Let me clear up some things.
I don’t see anywhere in what I posted that I was attempting to speak for all black people. What I was talking about was the reality of black history and how that history has shaped the concept of “black” now. I said for me “black” meaning “mixed” is my reality based on what I have observed and based on my knowledge of Black and American history. I very much respect your right to identify yourself however you see fit. I took issue with what you said because it seemed as if you were dismissing my perspective, what I said to me is realistic and a fact of life as a mere “perception.” I have not ever nor do I intend to start claiming to speak for all black people. So just get that bee out of your bonnet right now. 
What I tried to convey in my post, and apparently failed to get across to you, is that I am well aware that within the black community, there are a plethora of ways to define what “black” means. And, within in black and American history there has been a struggle for black folks to overcome non-black, dismissive, and disrespectful efforts to control how black folks define themselves. However, at the root of things, encoded in the history of race relations in this country, *it is a fact * that “black” was a convenient way to define folks of mixed ancestry. One of the reasons I like the concept of “black” is that it is a word embued with the tricky and troubling history of efforts to control identity in America and in other places touched by the legacy of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. Without the word “black,” it would probably be that much easier to forget this particular aspect of American history.
Any time you try to get into understanding race, ethnicity, nationality, and identity, it gets tricky, especially when you get into superficial things like appearance. [giggle] Sometimes I have the worst time distinguishing some Hispanics from Asians. I have to wait until they speak to be able to tell. I don’t mean that to sound racist or insensitive, but I just find it fascinating that I have trouble sometimes distinguishing between these two groups. I have run into folks who to all intents and purposes looked “black,” but who self-identify as Native American, and I didn’t dispute that. That’s fine. If those folks wanted to just call themselves “blue” or “mixed,” then that would be fine too if that’s what they wanted and if they retained their right to define themselves as they see fit. Like you say, there are some folks out there who have black heritage, who wouldn’t call themselves “black.” There are some folks out there who have the luxury of being able to trace their multiple heritages and apply those neat fractions to their identity. Fine. Well, there are also folks out there who don’t have that luxury of knowing what percentage of X they have because of the craziness that was the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade and slavery in America and other places, and a lot of those folks self-identify as “black” because of that history of mixing of nationalities and ethnicities. I did not come up with the term “black” on my own, nor did I come up with these arbitrary fractions that folks use to define how much of X heritage they have. IIRC, those arbitrary fractions really only legally apply to Native Americans, another history that’s fascinating to study and try to understand issues of controlling identity similar to those black folks face. But I’m rambling and I need more coffee. [sigh] At any rate, I hope this clears things up.
Oh, and Broomstick great post.
No, I’m not Polynesian. Or Mexican. Or Italian. Or even Bi-racial (as in, one parent is Black and the other is White)…
…but I get mistaken for these things and then some.
My parents are old. They grew up very much under the “one drop” rule, and very much under the unwritten rule that having light skin and straighter, finer hair, as a Black person, not only made you better-looking, but granted you certain privileges (sp?) that darker-skinned Black people didn’t get.
(I won’t even go into the fact that, until about three months ago, my mother truly believed that ALL Black people, no matter what their skin color, espoused these ideals, even today.)
This idea is part of the reason my parents married each other. Part of the reason their parents married each other (and so on)… to make “light” babies. However, neither my parents, nor their parents (and so on) considered themselves anything other than Black (no matter how they might have looked to the naked eye). Of course there was racial mixing… there always is, as celestina pointed out… but background, culture, and the “one drop” rule meant that they were Black. Period. Oh, we had some “passers”, every family does, but the ones in my immediate past were (thank God) not among them.
Hence, despite how I might look, I haven’t had any issues around alienating one parent by claiming Black heritage, or anything. HOWEVER, I still get the occasional comment from some well-meaning (yet–excuse me–ignorant) White acquaintance, about how I wouldn’t “have to be Black,” in other words I could “pass”, could claim some other heritage that isn’t concomitant with so many “issues” (i.e., negative stereotypes, racial strife, etc.) as Black American heritage.
Dear, sweet Jesus. :eek:
As a result of these and other comments (a date told me once that he never would have guessed that I was “COLORED”, because I don’t have a huge chip on my shoulder or speak “that jive talk”, like MOST “Colored” people… :eek: … yep, that was our LAST date…), I think I clung even more fiercely to my heritage (especially in college… you know how kids are at that age… 
). So while I agree that people absolutely have a right to label (or not label) themselves as they see fit, and that no parent should be discounted (especially one who has loved and raised the child in question), I can sort of understand the history that might lead a child with a Black parent and a White (or Japanese, or what have you) parent to claim Black heritage. In America, anyway…
Chocolate, the comic, described the situation with Tiger Woods perfectly:
Apparently, the racism against Blacks is so strong, it drowns out the racism against anyone else. God, I hate bigotry.
FTR: I, a white guy used to be married to a young lady from Korea. She and I were both called the “n-word” to our faces by one of those upstanding Georgia gentlemen.
Yep, racism knows no logic.
Good heavens, look at that typo! :o That should be “imbued” not “embued.” I declare I need to quit reading things on the internet. My spelling is getting worse everyday!
Preach it, auntie em! Frankly I am just floored at how some folks think that light-skinned folks who might could “pass” for black ought to just up and do so, as if somehow identifying oneself as “black” is shameful and something that only those who can’t “pass” for white are left doing. [sigh] There’s no shame in identifying oneself as black or in recognizing black as a part of one’s bi-racial, multi-racial, or whatever you want to call mixed heritage, especially when one understands the history of race relations in America and in other parts of the world touched by the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade.
In the US, black trumps all.
I am mixed. My mother was born in Puerto Rico, my dad in North Carolina, but to anyone who has just met me, I am black. I have mentioned on numerous occasions on this board that I’m Puerto Rican, but most peopel here just remember the black part.
What should I do? Go around telling every stranger in the street “Hey, I’m Puerto Rican too! My Abuela was born in Spain! See, I’m black and kinda white!”
Neither blacks nor whites appreciate the distinction. I remember the arguement I got into with my husband because of Tiger Woods. He was upset when Tiger said that he was Asian too. My husband felt that Tiger was trying to take away something from the black community by saying “Hey, I’m black and Asian!”
My husband seemed to have forgotten that I too have to point out constantly that I am the beneficiary of 2 perfectly wonderful heritages and there is no reason why I or Tiger Woods should be cheated out of one of them.
Bi-racial people have to choose. Most of the time the chose is made by society at large.
Sometimes the chose is and sometimes the choice is.
IIRC he said something along the lines of “My mother is Thai, my father is part Navaho (or some other people), part African, part German and part Swedish, so why, do you think, should I go around feeling I’m setting a good example for the black community” (feel free to correct me).
I don’t know how many times I have heard people, black or white, say something like “Puerto Ricans are another ‘kind’ of black”. Since many Puerto Ricans are of mixed origin - including African, and quite a few look very black - in applying the same “one drop” logic to a group of people as to an individual - Puerto Ricans become black - or something close to “black”.
Moderator’s Note: Well, this is sort of unusual, but I’m moving this thread to Great Debates.
Hang on, and whatever happens, don’t look back…
Phenotypically, I am mixed. That is, even though I consider myself “black”, I don’t look like I’m right out of Africa. It’s obvious that I have something else in me besides African, but–as celestina pointed out–black to me is a political term, not just a racial one.
It’s political in that when people see me, they know I’m not a member of the dominant race. They might think I’m Hispanic or Samoan or even Asian, but they know I’m not white. I have more black ancestors than other kinds, so I classify myself as black rather than Native American or Irish or Unknown (which I have a lot of). Furthermore, I was raised in black culture and raised to believe myself to be black, despite the fact that my father could pass as a white man. It would not be appropriate to identify myself as anything other than black in my case, IMHO.
Now, if I was raised in Native American culture, I might feel differently. I would identify as Irish if I were raised in Irish, or even Irish-American culture. But there would be no circumstances were I would feel that I could identify as “white”, even though I have European blood flowing in me. Maybe it’s the whole allusiveness of “white culture”, but I just don’t know how I could identify as white looking the way I do.
On the other hand, I have a whole set of cousins who do look white and probably identify this way. They aren’t “passers” because they don’t hide their darker-skinned brethen away from company, but they are married to white folk and have blond-haired, blue-eyed kids. By virtue of looking white, it’s probably much easier for them to identify as white, and understandably so. But I’m sure they would tell you they have black roots, just as I don’t keep secret the fact that I’m not 100% black. I think political identity (as in the case of Halle Berry saying she’s black) is much different than describing your racial origins, whereby one lists their “ingredients”.
The whole “one drop” issue has had (sadly) ironic implications throughout history that continue into current discussions.
Walter Plecker and the “purity” of Virginia
Eugenics and Racial Purity
The “One drop” rule in Virginia
(Virginia and Dr. Plecker set the “standard” by which other states wrote and enforced their laws through the early and mid twentieth century.)
I should have titled the thread “multi-racial” instead of “bi-racial.” I agree with the posters who object to such forcible distinctions on driver’s licenses and other various and sundry forms. I once had a very learned psychology professor who hated the whole idea of race. He believed that there was no such thing. I think I agree.
I would also like to point out that just because people may be of the same “race” doesn’t mean that they have things in common. I have mixed European origins of English, Irish, Danish, German, and Jewish. But just because I’m white, does that mean I have a kinship with, let’s say, the Hungarians? No way.
I have no idea what it’s like to be a _____–American. I see Italians on Columbus day, Irish on St. Patrick’s day (etc) but I have no idea what it’s like to claim one mother country.
I only refer to myself as “white” when I have no choice. When people ask I say that I am mixed, or “Heinz 57.”
I like being mixed.
Several valid questions to ask in the context of this discussion are:
Do lighter African-Americans get treated better than darker African-Americans TODAY?
If the answer is Yes (and I believe it is) does Halle correctly represent the struggle that African-Americans face today? Remember, that she was the one saying that she opened the door for all African-Americans by receiving the reward.
Is it just chance or is it proof that the lighter skinned you are the higher your chances for success are (in Hollywood)?
Despite what has been said here about ‘one drop’, I have to admit that when she was rambling I thought, ‘Easy for you to say, Halle, you’re not even black!’
Wow a topic dear to my heart
AT first glance I was thinking that I would reply I consider myself black, even though I am mixed. Then I was thinking that maybe I would consider myself Mixed because I am more than just black. Then I flashed back to my childhood. I remember My older sister getting very angry with me because I told her she looked like a white person(She is very light, one who could “pass”) I remember her telling me that she was just as black as I was and never to forget it. I remember being totally shunned by our black community(except for a dew, mostly my relative that didn’t even though some did) Not neccesarily because I was mixed, but because I thought I was better than them(thats what they always told me) and that I was trying to be “white” because I didn’t talk or dress like them. Or that I was an “oreo” because my parents sent me to a private school instead of to the public school system. When I transferred to the public school was the worst experience of my life. The white people at our school didn’t want much to do with me because I was “acting” white. The black people at our school made fun of me all day long, followed me around, and without recounting every bad memory I have making my time in the public school system miserable. At the time I really didn’t understand, I look black, why was I not accpeted? Because I spoke differently? And if I was such an “oreo” Why could not be accepted by the whites at our school? What was so wrong with me having long hair that was real? (If it was weave that would have been ok- Don’t ask me to follow the logic because I didn’t. That earned me having my hair yanked by a girl that I complained to the dean about all year without anything being done) What was so wrong with the way I spoke and dressed? Did it make me any less black?
After I graduated highschool I married someone who is white. The Black men in my community picked at me and ignored me, until I got married. All of the sudden it was I was too good for a black man, when none of them would give me the time of day anyway. The black women all said that I didn’t like black people and was trying to have more mixed children so everyone would eventually be white.
My own Mother who married a Biracial man,(also could “pass”, red haired, fair skinned, blue eyed) Wanted to know why I did not marry someone black, and So did, of all people, My dad!
Which led me to, what will I do when I have my own children? To not raise them with an awareness of being black would do them a great disservice, because of how other people will view them. Not that they should care what these other people think, But to say that they will not be treated differently becuase they are black, would be wishful thinking. I do not want them to think they are only black though, because there is a whole other side to them from their father.(white german/jewish side of the family)
I wish it was as simple to say we are all human and leave it at that, but sometimes other people force the issue, society forces the isssue.
Back to the op- I have no clue if its racist to refer to them as black, when they are multi-ethinic- But IMHO to refer to them as just white would be off too. Maybe we will get to the day where it really won’t matter, and we all can be just human.
As a matter of descent all “black” Americans are mixed(*), ergo I find these kind of discussions, from a logical POV highly entertaining.
If we are to adopt the “mixed” or “bi” or “multi-racial” label --and perhaps one should-- then logic requires we relabel black as multi-racial.
Logic, and politics, shall not meet.
(*: having in recent history terms alone mixed Euro, Indian and African origins. Carribeans even more diverse, including E. India and China, the latter from late 19th century flows)