# Black Panther movie (Marvel Cinematic Universe) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 16, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050 "2017-10-16T13:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/241 "2018-02-25T15:14:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Killmonger made those kills because he thought it was the only way to achieve his dream of a revolution of the oppressed. He was willing to break a helluva lot of eggs to make his omelette. “The ends justify the means,” is basically the universal principle of the noble villain. And ‘Killmonger’ has every reason to believe it so, not only because of his personal experience but because of how he was orphaned and abandoned by his own family. The film (the second half,at least) is fundamentally a Shakespearian tragedy along the lines of _Coriolanus_ or _Othello_. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/242 "2018-02-25T15:20:09Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > “The ends justify the means,” is basically the universal principle of the noble villain. It is also (arguably) the underlying principle of realpolitik, and Killmonger’s voyage into and out of the world of realpolitik is what makes him so interesting to me :). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/243 "2018-02-25T16:03:22Z")
But it is also - by no unintended event in my book - the rational by which Wakanda itself justifies its inaction over the centuries. They wish to be left alone, regardless of the suffering caused by that desire. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/244 "2018-02-25T17:03:33Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Besides the whole Keyser Soze “kill your girlfriend rather than let her be leverage against you” move. Coogler clearly wanted Killmonger to be seen as bad, poisoned by the his family flaw/legacy. But his basic point - Wakanda/empowered Black people should engage - is what swayed T’Challa. > > That whole ambiguity is what elevates the conversation about this “superhero” movie. Sure but a villain with an ends justify the means attitude isn’t exactly rare, even in comic book super hero movies. Magneto comes to mind imediately. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/245 "2018-02-25T17:13:18Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But it is also - by no unintended event in my book - the rational by which Wakanda itself justifies its inaction over the centuries. They wish to be left alone, regardless of the suffering caused by that desire. And here is where the concept falls apart if you look too hard at it. Vibranium has been in Wakanda forever. Even in low-tech times Vibranium allowed Wakanda to be way ahead of all other countries in the region and beyond. For its entire history Wakanda has hidden from the world and remained isolationist. Wakanda has a system of government in which the head of state is the guy who can beat up or kill his rivals. It all it’s history none of its violent warrior kings ever wanted to use Vibranium to expand their kingdom. It is afterall a super hero movie. Even if it tries to make broader points it can’t be looked at too deeply before you hit the silly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/246 "2018-02-25T17:21:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > And here is where the concept falls apart if you look too hard at it. > > Vibranium has been in Wakanda forever. > > Even in low-tech times Vibranium allowed Wakanda to be way ahead of all other countries in the region and beyond. > > For its entire history Wakanda has hidden from the world and remained isolationist. > > Wakanda has a system of government in which the head of state is the guy who can beat up or kill his rivals. > > It all it’s history none of its violent warrior kings ever wanted to use Vibranium to expand their kingdom. > > It is afterall a super hero movie. Even if it tries to make broader points it can’t be looked at too deeply before you hit the silly. Here’s an interesting hypothetical retcon solution to this problem – the “heart-shaped herb” subtly and gradually shifts one towards a peaceful mindset. Even Killmonger would have eventually been moved, as was perhaps evident at the very end (after he had been stabbed), towards peaceful coexistence… or perhaps his nature was harsh enough that even this effect from the herb was muted on him (but not past Wakandan rulers). And thus all Wakandan rulers were significantly less warlike by nature than they otherwise would have been. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/247 "2018-02-25T18:14:10Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Sure but a villain with an ends justify the means attitude isn’t exactly rare, even in comic book super hero movies. Magneto comes to mind imediately. Yes! The way this version approached it felt authentic to the African Diaspora/Global Legacy of Slavery history - that’s why I think all of this marketing hype got real traction. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/248 "2018-02-25T18:20:34Z")
The movie does explicitly state that the herb grants wisdom, as well as strength and speed. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/249 "2018-02-25T19:24:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > But it is also - by no unintended event in my book - the rational by which Wakanda itself justifies its inaction over the centuries. They wish to be left alone, regardless of the suffering caused by that desire. Ah, so you’d rather they impose their will on the rest of the world for our own good. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/250 "2018-02-25T20:08:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The movie does explicitly state that the herb grants wisdom, as well as strength and speed. There certainly is wizardry involved. Does it show you the afterlife? Are you hallucinating? Or is it all bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/251 "2018-02-25T21:02:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > There certainly is wizardry involved. Does it show you the afterlife? Are you hallucinating? Or is it all bullshit? Some might say this is getting into the midichlorians of it all, but I will admit that as a materialist, I was wondering if an afterlife is now canonically part of the MCU, and kind of hoping not. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/252 "2018-02-25T21:18:45Z")
I think they left that deliberately ambiguous, especially with how T’Challa’s and Killmonger’s views of the Ancestral Plane were so different. It _could_ be a genuine communication with the spirits of one’s ancestors… but none of the ancestors actually told either character anything they didn’t already know, and so it could also just be a hallucination. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/253 "2018-02-25T22:02:10Z")
There’s also [this theory.](https://www.avclub.com/black-panther-could-be-hiding-the-last-infinity-stone-i-1823236115) ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/254 "2018-02-25T22:05:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There’s also [this theory.](https://www.avclub.com/black-panther-could-be-hiding-the-last-infinity-stone-i-1823236115) I agree with that theory. The soul stone being inside the vibranium meteor would explain the heart-shaped herb and the ancestor-ghost thing as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/255 "2018-02-25T22:05:17Z")
Just saw it and enjoyed the movie a lot, especially the opening titles. Battle rhinos: yeah! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/256 "2018-02-25T22:53:04Z")
But isn’t the Soul Stone associated with Adam Warlock, who we saw being gestated by the Queen of the Perfect People in GotG 2? ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/257 "2018-02-25T23:00:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But isn’t the Soul Stone associated with Adam Warlock, who we saw being gestated by the Queen of the Perfect People in GotG 2? In the comics, the Soul Stone is associated with Adam - but it may be different in the movies. Still, I’m more inclined to speculate that the Soul Stone is being held by the Sovereign people, and Ayesha is going to use it to give her creation that extra kick. I also think she’s gonna be surprised at the results. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/258 "2018-02-25T23:11:00Z")
Oh, and as to why there would be a battle in Wakanda, in _Infinity War_: There are a bunch of refugees currently looking for a home, and heading for Earth. The leadership of Wakanda has just come around to the position that maybe it’s a good idea to help refugees, after all. One of those refugees currently has an Infinity Stone. Ergo, even if there is currently no Stone in Wakanda, there probably will be one soon. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/259 "2018-02-25T23:42:01Z")
JUST got back from seeing the movie. It. Was. AWESOME. I especially liked the strong, fierce women and how they were equal with the men without anybody remarking on that as being something special or out of the ordinary. ETA: Now I have to read the rest of this thread, as I’ve been avoiding it so as not to get spoilered. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/260 "2018-02-26T00:25:45Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > And here is where the concept falls apart if you look too hard at it. > > Vibranium has been in Wakanda forever. > > Even in low-tech times Vibranium allowed Wakanda to be way ahead of all other countries in the region and beyond. > > For its entire history Wakanda has hidden from the world and remained isolationist. > > Wakanda has a system of government in which the head of state is the guy who can beat up or kill his rivals. > > It all it’s history none of its violent warrior kings ever wanted to use Vibranium to expand their kingdom. > > It is afterall a super hero movie. Even if it tries to make broader points it can’t be looked at too deeply before you hit the silly. Eh, I got the feeling that the crown has passed down almost entirely without challenge - the movie makes it rather clear that the new ruler is chosen long before the current one dies, and spends his/her entire life training to be king. Only T’Challa’s failure to protect the king led to the challenge from the Jabari. Other than that, the entire scene plays out as more of a formality than a serious contest. The Black Panther is charged purely with defending Wakanda and its people - even if that threat comes from the king’s brother. Even when rescuing Nakiye, T’Challa avoided killing people as much as possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=14)