# Black Panther movie (Marvel Cinematic Universe) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 16, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050 "2017-10-16T13:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/501 "2018-07-09T14:26:22Z")
Plus, kingship by combat makes a lot of sense for the way Wakanda is set up. Most monarchs are symbolic protectors of the people. The Black Panther isn’t. He’s a real, literal, direct protector of the people. Their national defense is skewed heavily towards a small number of highly capable people, rather than a large number of common grunts. And the royals are expected to do their part: Not just the Black Panther himself, but his sister is the country’s top technologist, and his lover is their best spy. You want your king to be the best at what he does, and when what he does is fighting, then obviously the selection process is going to involve a test of his fighting skills. And this is fundamental to the character, because it’s the fighting, not the politicking, that we’re here to see. If anything, the part that’s dispensable isn’t that the Black Panther is chosen by combat, but that the Black Panther is King. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/502 "2018-07-09T15:06:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Okay, let’s call it Camelot. King Arthur didn’t win his throne by combat. He won it by pulling the sword from the stone and proving he was the true heir. When Mordred tried to overthrow him by combat, that didn’t bode well for the kingdom. Slight hijack, but: when I was a kid, and I heard the UK still has a ceremonial thing where coronation involves a designated champion who ritually declares that he’ll engage in personal combat with anyone who wants to challenge the heir’s right to take the throne — which is like asking wedding guests to speak now or forever hold their peace, in that it’s a tradition to _announce_ that, sure; but nobody is expected to actually _take them up on the offer_ — I thought, _when I grow up, I hope I’m enough of a big-shot VIP to get invited to that, and a good enough brawler to go for it, and American enough to still think this is a good idea then._ These seemed like reasonable aspirations. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/503 "2018-07-09T18:34:25Z")
Pack your bags for Wakanda!: [Atlanta’s International Airport Teases Flight To Wakanda – VIBE.com](https://www.vibe.com/2018/02/atlantas-international-airport-teases-a-flight-to-wakanda/) Saw the movie not long after it came out and liked it (esp. the King’s top bodyguard, one of the best badass sf female warriors since Ripley in _Aliens_), but I can’t say it really stuck with me. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/504 "2018-07-09T18:45:33Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And, going back to Asgard and Dune, those cultures _are_ primitive, brutal, etc., so it doesn’t have the same implications. > > The politics of _Star Wars_ seems in part based on Caesar’s overthrowing of the Roman Republic in favor of the Roman Empire. The rise of the “chosen one” there becomes a messiah story. The culture of the Galactic Empire is staged as a throwback, not as an example of a contemporary civilization. The cultures of Dune had interstellar spaceships. Asgard built a tesseract to travel between the worlds. A throne that must be defended by combat is exciting. Parliamentary procedure is boring, much as it’s better for real world governance. Do you really want a movie where Killmonger fundraises and buys TV spots for negative ads about T’Challa? Even if you do, I doubt enough other people do, not enough for a $700M domestic gross, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/505 "2018-07-09T18:49:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Slight hijack, but: when I was a kid, and I heard the UK still has a ceremonial thing where coronation involves a designated champion who ritually declares that he’ll engage in personal combat with anyone who wants to challenge the heir’s right to take the throne — which is like asking wedding guests to speak now or forever hold their peace, in that it’s a tradition to _announce_ that, sure; but nobody is expected to actually _take them up on the offer_ Racist against wypipo, that is. Bunch of savages. Actually that’s really interesting. Is it true? Note the similarities to Wakanda, though: when T’Challa is challenged, everyone is shocked, because it’s supposed to be a purely ceremonial thing. Just like in Merry Olde England, nobody is supposed to actually take the invitation seriously. And the reason it’s taken seriously is because one political group feels like the government is serving them ill by neglecting them. The challenge is the equivalent of a parliamentary maneuver, an exploitation of a little-regarded loophole in some ancient rules that nobody’s thought to update. Only with swords. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/506 "2018-07-09T18:57:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You want your king to be the best at what he does, and when what he does is fighting, then obviously the selection process is going to involve a test of his fighting skills. That’s comic book logic; the idea that you can solve problems by punching them in the face. If the main thing your king (or other national leader) does is hand-to-hand fighting you’re going to have a screwed-up country. “Your Majesty, the latest reports from our Education Ministry says that children’s literacy rates are declining.” “Well, let me put on my costume and I’ll go defeat illiteracy in combat.” “Actually, Sire, we were looking more for suggestions about additional sources of revenue so we could buy textbooks.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/507 "2018-07-09T20:18:46Z")
Yes, of course it’s comic-book logic. Your point? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/508 "2018-07-09T22:12:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Actually that’s really interesting. Is it true? It used to be. > [@](#): > > from [Coronation of the British monarch - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation_of_the_British_monarch) > > Historically, the coronation was immediately followed by a banquet held in Westminster Hall in the Palace of Westminster (which is also the home to the Houses of Parliament). The King or Queen’s Champion (the office being held by the Dymoke family in connection with the Manor of Scrivelsby) would ride into the hall on horseback, wearing a knight’s armour, with the Lord High Constable riding to his right and the Earl Marshal riding to his left. A herald would then make a proclamation of the readiness of the champion to fight anyone denying the monarch. After 1800, the form for this was as follows:[112] > > If any person, of what degree soever, high or low, shall deny or gainsay our Sovereign Lord …, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, son and next heir unto our Sovereign Lord the last King deceased, to be the right heir to the Imperial Crown of this Realm of Great Britain and Ireland, or that he ought not to enjoy the same; here is his Champion, who saith that he lieth, and is a false traitor, being ready in person to combat with him; and in this quarrel will adventure his life against him, on what day soever he shall be appointed.[112] > > The King’s Champion would then throw down the gauntlet; the ceremony would be repeated at the centre of the hall and at the High Table (where the sovereign would be seated). The sovereign would then drink to the champion from a gold cup, which he would then present to the latter.[112] This ritual was dropped from the coronation of Queen Victoria and was never revived. > [@](#): > > from [King's Champion - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Champion) > > William IV held no coronation banquet in 1831, so the King’s Champion was not called upon to act. At the Coronation of Queen Victoria in 1838, it was decided not to include the traditional ride and challenge of the Champion, and Henry Dymoke was made a baronet in recompense. It has never been revived.[5] At the 1902 coronation of Edward VII, his claim was admitted by the Court of Claims, and he was allowed to be Standard Bearer of England. Lieutenant-Colonel John Lindley Marmion Dymoke, MBE DL Royal Lincolnshire Regiment had his claim admitted at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953 and acted as Standard-Bearer of the Union Flag. > > The Champion’s Armour used for the coronations of James I to George IV still exists and is on display in St George’s Hall, Windsor Castle. My own thought: In the real world, Thailand and Ethiopia managed to maintain their independence against the colonial empires. Both were monarchies, where the sovereigns held real power. So the idea that Wakanda might be a monarchy is not completely unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/509 "2018-07-10T08:07:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And, going back to Asgard and Dune, those cultures _are_ primitive, brutal, etc., so it doesn’t have the same implications. Brutal, sure. Primitive? No fucking way. It’s an error to equate brutality with primitiveness. If the 20th century taught us anything, it taught us that civilized man is sooo much better at the brutality front, both in inventiveness and in absolute numbers. A lesson we _should_ have learned from Rome and Tenochtitlan, but there you go… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/510 "2018-07-10T08:08:51Z")
I must admit, on watching the film again, if I was running Wakanda, I’d _definitely_ institute a “one challenger per coronation” rule. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/511 "2018-07-10T15:00:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I must admit, on watching the film again, if I was running Wakanda, I’d _definitely_ institute a “one challenger per coronation” rule. Slacker. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/512 "2018-07-10T15:10:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, of course it’s comic-book logic. Your point? That those of us who live in the real world don’t have to accept comic-book logic. If you want to accept that hand-to-hand combat is a good system for choosing a king in a comic-book world because it works in that setting, then fine. But if somebody else wants to object that such a system would not work and therefore they can’t suspend their belief that far, then their opinion is just as valid. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/513 "2018-07-10T15:46:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That those of us who live in the real world don’t have to accept comic-book logic. In a comic-book movie, it’s a little odd not to accept comic-book logic. It’d be like going to see Hamilton and getting pissed because in real life people don’t just randomly break into song. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/514 "2018-07-10T16:11:07Z")
I just saw the film for the first time myself, and while I liked it, I did have a few quibbles. First, I thought that Killmonger was much less compelling than he could have been, and the isolation vs intervention argument was poorly presented on both sides. Black Panther kept making the argument that isolation keeps them safe, but never makes the much more common and logical isolationist argument that they owe nothing to outsiders, of any color- the we’re too good for them argument, the “Beggars in Spain” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/515 "2018-07-10T17:47:36Z")
Yes, the King of Wakanda has many duties other than fighting. But a movie about tax negotiations would be really boring. So we watch the parts where he kicks butt, instead. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/516 "2018-07-10T18:31:55Z")
_Star Wars: The Phantom Menace_ has already shown us how gripping a movie about interstellar trade policy can be. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/517 "2018-07-10T18:42:08Z")
I don’t quite get this quibble over how Wakanda is ruled, etc. Its set up straight from the getgo of the film - they were 5 warring tribes, they found the vibranium, set up a way that works for them - and largely under tradition - maintain it to this day - including ‘protecting’ vibranium from the outside world and remaining isolated. The entire movie, and the events in CA:CW with T’Chaka all set up how 'Wakanda can no longer afford to be on the sidelines" - and this movie, is specifically about those growing pains for them. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/518 "2018-07-12T03:14:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I didn’t see Ross as a white person surrogate in the film. I think any white viewers who were that superficial would be annoyed at how “their” character had so minor a part in the story. “That superficial”? I’ve seen so many POC speak movingly of how important it was to them as children to see characters in movies that represented them demographically. But if a little white kid in 2018, someone born in the 2010s, feels the same urge, it’s “superficial”? Remember, these kids’ current pop culture is what’s out now, not what we grew up on. > [@Acsenray](#): > > The point is that this is an advanced, contemporary black African nation being depicted as perpetuating a stereotypically barbaric practice like ritual combat as a basis for government. It’s one of the worst stereotypes to perpetuate in this context. It’s as bad as headhunters with giant lips and massive bushy hair wearing grass skirts cooking white men wearing pith helmets in a giant pot and dancing in a circle singing “boogeda-boogeda.” I think you make a strong point, and people are unfairly shouting you down. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/519 "2018-07-12T03:28:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “That superficial”? I’ve seen so many POC speak movingly of how important it was to them as children to see characters in movies that represented them demographically. But if a little white kid in 2018, someone born in the 2010s, feels the same urge, it’s “superficial”? Remember, these kids’ current pop culture is what’s out now, not what we grew up on. It was important to them _because it was so rare._ That white kid born in 2010 has no end of representation in popular media, including literally every other movie in the MCU. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/520 "2018-07-12T03:50:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It was important to them _because it was so rare._ That white kid born in 2010 has no end of representation in popular media, including literally every other movie in the MCU. It’s either a superficial desire or it’s not (I say not). And I think it makes perfect sense for them to give white representation in a movie made in a country that still has a lot more white people than black people. I know when I travel, or like when I was looking for a place to live in Jersey City or St. Louis or Minneapolis, I thought it was cool if a neighborhood was say 50 percent black, 20 percent Latino, 20 percent various others, and 10 percent white. But sometimes I’d run into a neighborhood that was essentially 100 percent black, no sign of anyone of any other ethnicity. And I knew “this is not a place for me”. I think movies can work kind of the same way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=27)