# Black Panther movie (Marvel Cinematic Universe) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 16, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050 "2017-10-16T13:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/521 "2018-07-12T04:12:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “That superficial”? I’ve seen so many POC speak movingly of how important it was to them as children to see characters in movies that represented them demographically. But if a little white kid in 2018, someone born in the 2010s, feels the same urge, it’s “superficial”? Remember, these kids’ current pop culture is what’s out now, not what we grew up on. If a white person is superficial and can’t identify with a black protagonist because of the difference in their race, he can just pick any one of a dozen other movies that all have a white protagonist. If a black person is superficial and can’t identify with a white protagonist because of the difference in their race, he’s probably out of luck unless Will Smith made an action thriller this year. Same thing with gender. Boys always have multiple choices among movies with male protagonists. Girls are lucky when they get one movie with a female protagonist. This is yet another example of white male privilege. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/522 "2018-07-12T04:41:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If a white person is superficial and can’t identify with a black protagonist because of the difference in their race, he can just pick any one of a dozen other movies that all have a white protagonist. But that doesn’t help “Black Panther” make money. And we’re not talking about a protagonist here, just one character who has a heroic moment or two. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/523 "2018-07-12T05:06:50Z")
BTW, I looked at Box Office Mojo’s list of the top 20 grossing movies of 2017. Of the live-action films on the list, I wanted to see how many didn’t have significant nonwhite representation, which I defined as when Googling the movie title, then clicking “CAST”, I only see white faces without scrolling—that’s the first six castmembers’ photos listed. I only found two live action movies that white in the Top 20. One was #14 “Dunkirk”, which deserves a pass since unless there is an aspect to that historical event I’ve not learned all these years, there just wouldn’t have been nonwhites there. But the other, #19 “Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Men Tell No Tales”, seems more questionable. I’ve never seen any of that franchise, though, so maybe there’s a reason for it I’m not aware of. In any case, I believe “Pirates” was considered a financial disappointment this time around, and the films up at the top of the list show that representation is pretty much crucial nowadays. But that still goes both ways, so it would be very risky—arguably crazy—to release a tentpole movie with no white representation at all. > **[Domestic Box Office For 2017 - Box Office Mojo](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2017/)** ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/524 "2018-07-12T09:31:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Dunkirk”, which deserves a pass since unless there is an aspect to that historical event I’ve not learned all these years, there just wouldn’t have been nonwhites there. There were both Indian British and African French troops at Dunkirk. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/525 "2018-07-12T15:08:02Z")
As an example of a white guy identifying with Agent Ross, I present [Howard Tayler’s review of the movie](http://howardtayler.com/tag/movie-review/page/3/) (near the bottom of the page; I can’t find a way to link to an individual review): > [@](#): > > I saw Black Panther on Friday afternoon during its opening weekend, and while I really enjoyed it, I must acknowledge that my experience in the theater was different from the experience of a great many movie goers whose skin color is different from mine. > > I identified most with Martin Freeman’s character, and loved the way he responded to being an alien in a world he didn’t know existed. Other viewers will likely identify more closely with Chadwick Boseman’s character, or Lupita Nyong’o’s, or Letitia Wright’s. I loved all the characters, but I don’t see myself in all of them, at least not to the same degree. > > This strongly supports my belief that the stories we tell should reflect the diversity of us humans. **It matters**. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/526 "2018-07-12T15:17:48Z")
There you go. > [@MrDibble](#): > > There were both Indian British and African French troops at Dunkirk. Good to know. Pass hereby revoked. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/527 "2018-07-12T15:41:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > BTW, I looked at Box Office Mojo’s list of the top 20 grossing movies of 2017. Of the live-action films on the list, I wanted to see how many didn’t have significant nonwhite representation, which I defined as when Googling the movie title, then clicking “CAST”, I only see white faces without scrolling—that’s the first six castmembers’ photos listed. I only found two live action movies that white in the Top 20. So you found “significant nonwhite representation”. Good for you. Have a cookie. But as I recall, we were talking about the protagonist. How many of the movies had a black face in the top spot? Compared to how many had a black guy playing the character who was the white guy in the top spot’s sidekick? I count one movie in the top twenty: _Get Out_. Maybe two if you count Dwayne Johnson as black. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/528 "2018-07-12T17:13:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There were both Indian British and African French troops at Dunkirk. And while I can’t connect them explicitly to Dunkirk, during the fall of France there were significant numbers of Indochinese troops (from French-colonized Viet Nam) who gave a very good account of themselves, fighting with such ferocity that the Germans made note of their valor. A lesson absolutely everyone would quickly forget, at considerable cost, in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/529 "2018-07-12T18:28:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There were both Indian British and African French troops at Dunkirk. There was some discussion of that in the thread here about Christopher Nolan’s movie _Dunkirk_. There were a lot of soldiers on that beach, and I was not terribly surprised that a movie wouldn’t show the relatively few there who were of color. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/530 "2018-07-12T19:20:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as I recall, we were talking about the protagonist. You recall wrong. We were talking about Ross, from the CIA. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > There was some discussion of that in the thread here about Christopher Nolan’s movie _Dunkirk_. There were a lot of soldiers on that beach, and I was not terribly surprised that a movie wouldn’t show the relatively few there who were of color. You should be surprised by that in 2017, as my post about the top 20 grossing movies should illustrate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/531 "2018-07-12T22:36:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as I recall, we were talking about the protagonist. How many of the movies had a black face in the top spot? Compared to how many had a black guy playing the character who was the white guy in the top spot’s sidekick? > [@SlackerInc](#): > > You recall wrong. We were talking about Ross, from the CIA. Interesting fact about this board: it has a quote feature. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If a white person is superficial and can’t identify with a black protagonist because of the difference in their race, he can just pick any one of a dozen other movies that all have a white protagonist. If a black person is superficial and can’t identify with a white protagonist because of the difference in their race, he’s probably out of luck unless Will Smith made an action thriller this year. > > Same thing with gender. Boys always have multiple choices among movies with male protagonists. Girls are lucky when they get one movie with a female protagonist. > > This is yet another example of white male privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/532 "2018-07-13T01:02:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I like the bits about the movie itself, but the rap they’re using as a backing track for it was really distracting. I hope that the studio didn’t just think “well, it’s about a black guy, so we’ve got to use rap”. > > I think in general, for a trailer, you either need to have dialog from the movie, or music with lyrics, but not both. There were too many spots where the words of the rap were intruding on the dialog. A valid complaint. If you are interested in the actual movie score I recommend the podcast Song Exploder episode 131 ‘Black Panther’ where they focus on the construction of one of the theme songs from the movie. I promise you will be impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/533 "2018-07-13T12:55:50Z")
And of course, as it turned out, rap was actually a good choice, because one of the main characters really did come from a culture where that’s the dominant musical genre, and it’s very relevant that that’s the culture he came from. Though I still think that combining dialog with lyrics in the trailer was a misstep. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/534 "2018-07-13T19:43:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Interesting fact about this board: it has a quote feature. It does indeed. But quoting an earlier instance of your stubbornly making the same error (losing the plot) multiple times does not a cite for your correctness make. (I also corrected you both times previously; this is now the third time.) Let’s review, shall we? > [@Chronos](#): > > I think Freeman’s character was intended to give white people someone they could identify with, and I’ve heard a number of white people say that they did in fact identify with him, so he worked for that purpose. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I didn’t see Ross as a white person surrogate in the film. I think any white viewers who were that superficial would be annoyed at how “their” character had so minor a part in the story. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > “That superficial”? I’ve seen so many POC speak movingly of how important it was to them as children to see characters in movies that represented them demographically. But if a little white kid in 2018, someone born in the 2010s, feels the same urge, it’s “superficial”? Remember, these kids’ current pop culture is what’s out now, not what we grew up on. > [@Miller](#): > > It was important to them _because it was so rare._ That white kid born in 2010 has no end of representation in popular media, including literally every other movie in the MCU. [What Miller seemed to miss here is that a black kid born in 2010 also has “no end of representation in popular media”, also “including literally every other movie in the MCU” (I haven’t checked this, but I think it would hold up to the same test of the top six castmembers on Google—if not, it would have to be very early ones that failed to). That’s why I posted the list of last year’s top 20 grossing movies, to illustrate that point.] > [@SlackerInc](#): > > It’s either a superficial desire or it’s not (I say not). And I think it makes perfect sense for them to give white representation in a movie made in a country that still has a lot more white people than black people. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If a white person is superficial and can’t identify with a black protagonist because of the difference in their race, he can just pick any one of a dozen other movies that all have a white protagonist. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > But that doesn’t help “Black Panther” make money. And we’re not talking about a protagonist here, just one character who has a heroic moment or two. [This was the first time I corrected you, and it’s weird that I had to, because you were the one—as I look back—who pointed out that Ross’s part wasn’t that big.] > [@SlackerInc](#): > > BTW, I looked at Box Office Mojo’s list of the top 20 grossing movies of 2017. Of the live-action films on the list, I wanted to see how many didn’t have significant nonwhite representation, which I defined as when Googling the movie title, then clicking “CAST”, I only see white faces without scrolling—that’s the first six castmembers’ photos listed. I only found two live action movies that white in the Top 20. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you found “significant nonwhite representation”. Good for you. Have a cookie. > > But as I recall, we were talking about the protagonist. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > You recall wrong. We were talking about Ross, from the CIA. [Second time I had to correct you on this point.] There was also a cite and quote of a movie review that indicated how Ross was a surrogate for the reviewer, which for him illustrated the importance of representation. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/535 "2018-07-13T23:51:55Z")
Ross was there to tie the movie into the larger MCU. Remember he met T’challa in Civil War. I can’t read Ryan Coogler’s mind, but I don’t doubt that he had a little laugh at having a token white hero after so many token black heroes. Not really sure what you guys are arguing about though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/536 "2018-07-14T01:01:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Second time I had to correct you on this point. No, still waiting for the first time. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Let’s review, shall we? Yes, let’s. We were having a discussion about the movie \*Black Panther \*and the characters in that movie. That somebody decided to introduce the topic of other movies: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > “That superficial”? I’ve seen so many POC speak movingly of how important it was to them as children to see characters in movies that represented them demographically. But if a little white kid in 2018, someone born in the 2010s, feels the same urge, it’s “superficial”? Remember, these kids’ current pop culture is what’s out now, not what we grew up on. So I explained to you that what non-white movie viewers are upset about is how rare it is to have a movie with a non-white protagonist. And that white viewers don’t have this complaint because movies with white protagonists are very common. You chose not to address this point. I’m assuming you realized it was not something you could deny. Instead you choose to pretend that somebody was claiming that there were no non-white characters in movies and argue against that instead. I, for one, have no problem with getting back on the topic of this thread, which is the movie _Black Panther_. If you want to continue to have a general discussion about the depiction of race and gender in Hollywood movie, you can start a new thread on that topic. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/537 "2018-07-14T04:14:44Z")
This _is_ about the movie “Black Panther”, in which Ross is clearly there to provide a character for whites in the audience to identify with (and, yes, to tie into the broader MCU—also true of the South African baddie). And I’m continuing to maintain that there’s nothing “superficial” (as you put it) about their having that desire, just as there’s nothing superficial about POC having that desire in other movies with mostly white casts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/538 "2018-07-14T04:46:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > This _is_ about the movie “Black Panther”, in which Ross is clearly there to provide a character for whites in the audience to identify with (and, yes, to tie into the broader MCU—also true of the South African baddie). And I’m continuing to maintain that there’s nothing “superficial” (as you put it) about their having that desire, just as there’s nothing superficial about POC having that desire in other movies with mostly white casts. Stories, so it goes, are mirrors and windows. It’s good to have both kinds of stories: those that reflect your own life, and those that show you the lives of others. White people going to the movies get a shit-ton of mirrors. Black people going to the movies get a shit-ton of windows. Both kinds of stories are good. If you’re only getting one kind, it makes sense to say, hey, could I get some of the other? Maybe Lord of the Rings doesn’t need to have all the elves be black, maybe it’s okay if Spiderman is nearly an all-white cast, maybe if Bridget Jones’s Diary is all white that’s not a problem; but when movie after movie after movie is a mirror for white folk and a window for everyone else, that’s a problem. That doesn’t mean that Aunt May needs to be Latina, or that Samwise should be black, or that Bridget herself should be Filipino. It’s okay for some movies to be windows. But it means that, across the field, across the medium, even across a studio, there should be a mix. So, no, it’s not reasonable to demand a Token White Guy (yes, I’ve heard the pun, probably in this thread) in every movie. Doing that would be as superficial as demanding that at least one of the Fellowship of the Rings be clearly black. Just as black kids DIDN’T have hardly any superheroes to look up to in Marvel movies for a long damn time, white kids DID. A single movie that reverses the overwhelming trend doesn’t actually need to throw a token to white people for white people to have their mirror/window needs met. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/539 "2018-07-14T07:45:17Z")
Once again, we’re not talking about protagonists here, even if some people would prefer we did (even though this movie has black protagonists). In supporting roles, nearly every tentpole movie is diverse (including, BTW, the most recent—and excellent—Spider-Man movie). And that’s as it should be. It’s just basic, competent marketing, not to mention PR management. For a movie like “Moonlight” to shoehorn in a white character would be quite another matter. But tentpole movies like BP have boxes to check. That’s just how it is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/540 "2018-07-14T10:46:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Once again, we’re not talking about protagonists here, even if some people would prefer we did (even though this movie has black protagonists). In supporting roles, nearly every tentpole movie is diverse (including, BTW, the most recent—and excellent—Spider-Man movie). And that’s as it should be. It’s just basic, competent marketing, not to mention PR management. > > For a movie like “Moonlight” to shoehorn in a white character would be quite another matter. But tentpole movies like BP have boxes to check. That’s just how it is. It’s fine that they did it. It also would be fine if they didn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=28)