# Black Panther movie (Marvel Cinematic Universe) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 16, 2017, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050 "2017-10-16T13:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/101 "2018-02-17T15:14:36Z")
**[Moderating]** > [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > **Trumpistas, reading online about the 13 Mueller Russian indictments:** “Thank god all the libtards are out watching the schvoogie superhero movie.” **Uke** , you know better than this, and it should have been obvious what forum you’re in. This is a Warning for politicking in CS. On a separate note, everyone, remember that this thread is not marked as containing spoilers. Either box your spoilers, or start a new spoilers-open thread. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/102 "2018-02-17T15:30:02Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > My only complaint was that the character of Killmonger [spoiler]died basically just to have a nice neat ending. > > I don’t know about how the character is in the comic books but Michael B Jordan’s Killmonger, Ryan Coogler’s Killmonger, was redeemable. Especially since the hero _recognized_ that this was a “monster of our own making”. > > Once T’Challa incapacitated him in battle with a not immediately fatal wound, he could have rushed him directly to the infirmary and then there would have been _many_ Wakandan sunsets for him to witness. > > To get the nice neatly packaged ending, they have Killmonger say that he’d rather die than live in bondage which, although the sentiment was in character, didn’t have to be his only options. His direct adversary was the damned King! As King, T’Challa easily could have said, “Yeah, you did some really bad shit, but we failed you in the first place.” > > Going forward, he would have been a great Ally-But-Not-Ideologically-Aligned kind of a character, actually, I think he would have had the potential to be one of the _all time best_ of that kind of character. He definitely had a lot more to offer going forward. I could totally understand him dying in the original _script_ but once the character was fully realized someone should have said, “Hey, waitaminute, let’s keep this character around!”[/spoiler] > > That’s my only complaint about the film. > > Loved it. They explicitly offered him this and he refused. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/103 "2018-02-17T19:41:24Z")
I’m going to go against the masses here. I love the MCU and I am currently binge watching Daredevil on Netflix. I thought that the movie was about 30 minutes too long and as a result, the pacing was terribly slow. We watched Dr Strange when we got home and it felt like non stop action as a comparison. The tech was cool, really cool, especially the holo driving. The movie was as good as any other MCU offering. However, to me, it was not the “epic” that had been promised by early reviews. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/104 "2018-02-17T21:12:36Z")
Loved it. Super performances, beautiful look, ticked all the superhero action movie boxes and gave a lot more depth to the MCU as a whole. All the thumbs up. But roll your eyes and scroll on past now, because I’m about to be That Person. **bienville** said: Going forward, [Killmonger] would have been a great Ally-But-Not-Ideologically-Aligned kind of a character, actually, I think he would have had the potential to be one of the all time best of that kind of character. He definitely had a lot more to offer going forward. That would have been a very daring choice, because I think it’s no coincidence that the major villain role was assigned to the American black guy who was “thuggish”, “militant”, “radical”, and the only person in the movie actively angry about exploitation and oppression of black people. I felt that setup was, perhaps not totally intentionally, crafted to be reassuring to white viewers—oh, the scary angry American black guy is a bloodthirsty villain who gets rejected and taken down by the peace-loving “good blacks” with the cute accents and the international-cooperation aspirations. All Lives Matter. :rolleyes: And speaking of international cooperation, what **really** ground my gears at the end was that fucking Wakanda Outreach Center in Oakland bit. Right, because of **course** the sufferings of poor blacks in the US, due in large part to centuries of oppression and discrimination by whites, need to be addressed by the efforts and resources of foreign rich blacks from a wealthy African nation! Heaven forbid that US society should be expected to put in the work to overcome and redeem the legacy of its own racist past in its own communities, right? Yeah yeah yeah, I do get that in-universe it made a lot of sense that T’Chala should have felt some personal responsibility to reach out to the community where his uncle was killed and his cousin struggled. But whether the filmmakers meant it that way or not, that aspect of the movie really came across as pandering to the comfort zone of white people. That said, I reiterate my overall opinion that it was a very good Marvel movie and a fun watch. Except for the CGI rhinoceroses. I really don’t feel that the CGI rhinoceroses added anything. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/105 "2018-02-18T07:51:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > They explicitly offered him this and he refused. Not really… [SPOILER]T’Challa offers to take him to have his wounds healed. Killmonger refuses _specifically stating_ that his refusal is based on not wanting to live in bondage (assuming incarceration for his attempt at usurping the throne to wage war on the rest of the world). His refusal is directly tied to the presumption that his healing will be immediately followed by incarceration. I’m saying that not only did I in audience think Killmonger was redeemable but T’Challa as a character in the movie seemed to feel that Killmonger was redeemable. _Therefore_ T’Challa standing by while Killmonger allows himself to die was, for me, a dissatisfying ending. _Especially_, since T’Challa had already expressed regret that his father’s sins had created the damaged angry part of who Killmonger came to be.[/SPOILER] ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/106 "2018-02-18T13:31:38Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Not really… > > [SPOILER]T’Challa offers to take him to have his wounds healed. > Killmonger refuses _specifically stating_ that his refusal is based on not wanting to live in bondage (assuming incarceration for his attempt at usurping the throne to wage war on the rest of the world). > > His refusal is directly tied to the presumption that his healing will be immediately followed by incarceration. > > I’m saying that not only did I in audience think Killmonger was redeemable but T’Challa as a character in the movie seemed to feel that Killmonger was redeemable. _Therefore_ T’Challa standing by while Killmonger allows himself to die was, > for me, a dissatisfying ending. _Especially_, since T’Challa had already expressed regret that his father’s sins had created the damaged angry part of who Killmonger came to be.[/SPOILER] I don’t see how you can have redemption that doesn’t have “paying for your crimes” as step 1. Of course he should be incarcerated, his refusal to submit to that is a refusal of the offer of redemption. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/107 "2018-02-18T14:45:30Z")
The amusing thing is that despite the whole “oppressed peoples” meme, in real life an African kingdom like Wakanda would have been a slave selling enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/108 "2018-02-18T16:37:55Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The amusing thing is that despite the whole “oppressed peoples” meme, in real life an African kingdom like Wakanda would have been a slave selling enterprise. Why? They’ve built a thriving economy with basically zero foreign trade (we’ll ignore the probable economic impossibility of that by saying “vibranium”). There is no reason to think that they would have felt the need to raise funds in the slave trade. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/109 "2018-02-18T17:24:08Z")
I loved it. I love the plethora of kick-ass women characters. There are no damsels-in-distress in this movie. Even Princess Shuri was ready to throw some bows. I love the costumes and all the natural hair styles. (Only black chick with straightened hair was Killmonger’s girlfriend.) I loved that the people of Wakanda are so culturally diverse. I loved that the cast also reflects this diversity. Danai (the General) is of Zimbawanean heritage (born in US, though). Lupita is of Kenya-Mexican heritage. Danial Kaluuya (the guy with the rhinos) is the child of Uganda parents. Letitica Wright (Princess Shuri) is Guyanese. And of course the African Americans and British Americans. Anyone who thinks the film lacks diversity isn’t really paying attention. I loved the quandry of what to do when you have a tyrant leader who is entitled to the throne. Is your duty to the throne or to the society that throne is supposed to serve? What do you do when those two things conflict? Very timely indeed! The movie has been on my mind ever since I saw it yesterday afternoon. I hope Princess Shuri inspires kids (of all colors and genders) to go into engineering and science. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/110 "2018-02-18T17:24:55Z")
There is a lot of evidence that they tend to stick to themselves. Nothing that they have zero trade and links. Obviously they have exported vibranium. That’s how Stark Sr got hold of some some. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/111 "2018-02-18T17:39:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I loved it. > > I love the plethora of kick-ass women characters. There are no damsels-in-distress in this movie. Even Princess Shuri was ready to throw some bows. > > I love the costumes and all the natural hair styles. (Only black chick with straightened hair was Killmonger’s girlfriend.) > > I loved that the people of Wakanda are so culturally diverse. I loved that the cast also reflects this diversity. Danai (the General) is of Zimbawanean heritage (born in US, though). Lupita is of Kenya-Mexican heritage. Danial Kaluuya (the guy with the rhinos) is the child of Uganda parents. Letitica Wright (Princess Shuri) is Guyanese. And of course the African Americans and British Americans. Anyone who thinks the film lacks diversity isn’t really paying attention. > > I loved the quandry of what to do when you have a tyrant leader who is entitled to the throne. Is your duty to the throne or to the society that throne is supposed to serve? What do you do when those two things conflict? Very timely indeed! > > The movie has been on my mind ever since I saw it yesterday afternoon. I hope Princess Shuri inspires kids (of all colors and genders) to go into engineering and science. What I liked best about the film was how they avoided making all the black characters all paragons of virtue and they did not make the White CIA Agent a doddering racist evildoer. Even the heroic black characters had some flaws and serious ones. The CIA agent is a good, if misguided person. Made the film seem more “real”, or at least as real as a Marvel film can get. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/112 "2018-02-18T17:43:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The amusing thing is that despite the whole “oppressed peoples” meme, in real life an African kingdom like Wakanda would have been a slave selling enterprise. Africans were usually enslaved by other Africans who they were at war with. The Wakandans were pretty isolated. So I’m not seeing how there would have been much warfare between them and other states. At any rate, many Africans states were not in the slave trade business. Should we assume that because there were concentration camps in some parts of the European continent during the 1930s and 1940s, that any random European state during that time would have been in the concentration camp business? Furthermore, the kind of slavery practiced by Africans was very different from the kind practiced by Europeans/Americans. Both were oppressive, but there is a spectrum. If I could choose the kind of slave I had to be, I’d choose the one where I retain the right to call myself a human being. Wouldn’t you? I don’t see how any of this is “amusing”. But YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/113 "2018-02-18T17:47:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What I liked best about the film was how they avoided making all the black characters all paragons of virtue and they did not make the White CIA Agent a doddering racist evildoer. Even the heroic black characters had some flaws and serious ones. The CIA agent is a good, if misguided person. > > Made the film seem more “real”, or at least as real as a Marvel film can get. So you’re saying the film is pretty much like any film that is produced nowadays? Because I can’t think of any film where most of the characters are good and flawless. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/114 "2018-02-18T17:54:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Africans were usually enslaved by other Africans who they were at war with. > > The Wakandans were pretty isolated. So I’m not seeing how there would have been much warfare between them and other states. > > At any rate, many Africans states were not in the slave trade business. Should we assume that because there were concentration camps in some parts of the European continent during the 1930s and 1940s, that any random European state during that time would have been in the concentration camp business? > > Furthermore, the kind of slavery practices by Africans was very different from the kind practiced by Europeans/Americans. Both were oppressive, but there is a spectrum. If I could choose the kind of slave I had to be, I’d choose the one where I retain the right to call myself a human being. Wouldn’t you? > > I don’t see how any of this is “amusing”. But YMMV. :rolleyes: Most of the slave trade was carried out by established African political entities. For instance the Songhai Empire, the Dendi Kingdom and earlier the Mali Empire. Its not like Europeans showed up at an African beach with nets and grabbed the first people they saw. Plus there was a lot of levels of trade in slaves within the continent before they got to the Americas. X would capture slaves to sell to Y who would sell them on to European traders. Whydah was a small kingdom which regularly bought out slaves from elsewhere and then sold them on. And so cute that you think a slave of whatever description retains the right to call myself a human being’. A slave is by definition property. I’d rather not be property. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/115 "2018-02-18T18:00:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > Most of the slave trade was carried out by established African political entities. For instance the Songhai Empire, the Dendi Kingdom and earlier the Mali Empire. Its not like Europeans showed up at an African beach with nets and grabbed the first people they saw. Plus there was a lot of levels of trade in slaves within the continent before they got to the Americas. X would capture slaves to sell to Y who would sell them on to European traders. Whydah was a small kingdom which regularly bought out slaves from elsewhere and then sold them on. > > And so cute that you think a slave of whatever description retains the right to call myself a human being’. A slave is by definition property. I’d rather not be property. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/116 "2018-02-18T18:01:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But I did like how the “another broken white boy for me to fix” made sense at the end. !!! I missed that at the time! Fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/117 "2018-02-18T18:06:40Z")
Eta: Nm. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/118 "2018-02-18T18:07:59Z")
> [@BetsQ](#): > > !!! I missed that at the time! Fantastic. It was said when they brought Ross in from Pusan. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/119 "2018-02-18T19:17:14Z")
**[Moderating]** OK, first of all, **monstro** , telling another poster “fuck you” is not acceptable anywhere on this board, not even in the Pit (which we aren’t in). This is an official Warning. That said, I understand that you were provoked. **AK84** , it looks like you brought up slavery just for the purpose of scoring political points, and your “so cute” comment is dangerously close to the “personal insults” line. Drop all discussion of the slavery question, and reign in the condescension. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050/120 "2018-02-18T20:23:25Z")
**On Further Review** I’d forgotten that this was the same thread that I had just given a different Warning for politicking in. Given that, **AK84** ’s post looks a fair bit more jerkish. It was already very close to the line; that’s enough to put it over. This is also therefore a Warning for **AK84**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie-marvel-cinematic-universe/799050.md?page=7)