# Black Parents Demand that Catholic School Beat Their Kids? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515 "2011-03-30T15:18:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/41 "2011-03-30T20:05:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. I’m just refusing to romanticize beating children, or the effects of doing so. Beating a gay guy for being sinful, beating your wife for not being submissive enough, torturing a prisoner because he won’t confess to what you think he did; that’s just the same principle as “corporal punishment” taken into adulthood. What **Magiver** did is not romanticizing, really. More refusing to question the practice. “Worked for my generation, I turned out fine, that settles it.” It’s understandable. Corporal punishment is most often defended by people with an unquestioning attitude toward established authority. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/42 "2011-03-30T20:09:20Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > What **Magiver** did is not romanticizing, really. More refusing to question the practice. “Worked for my generation, I turned out fine, that settles it.” > > It’s understandable. Corporal punishment is most often defended by people with an unquestioning attitude toward established authority. He now believes that slapping children in the face in front of other children is proper discipline. Yep, he turned out just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/43 "2011-03-30T20:15:42Z")
Some people believe in self-discipline as a principle to be learned; others believe in outer discipline as a force to be submitted to. There are stops along the continuum as well. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/44 "2011-03-30T20:16:38Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Are you doubting me? Is that what you mean by your little scare quotes? Do tell me what I learned from being paddled. On second thought, don’t. Beat your own kids if you want, but the teachers should not be allowed to. Anyway I am done with this argument. Arguing on the Internet never accomplishes anything. Well, since you only have this one story as an example, my guess is that you never “forgot” to get your paper signed again, and you weren’t ever punished again like that. Seems to me lesson learned. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/45 "2011-03-30T20:26:50Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > Well, since you only have this one story as an example, my guess is that you never “forgot” to get your paper signed again, and you weren’t ever punished again like that. Seems to me lesson learned. This (I dunno **Ana** , maybe you know already) is an example of the philosophy called _consequentialism._ “The end justifies the means” is its common expression. Ie, all that matters is achieving the desired outcome. Any undesired outcomes - especially anything intangible, like emotional trauma, that anyone might conceivably lie about - are to be accepted as the price of the ticket. Another ever-popular philosophy among authoritarians, appealing to their belief that people are best regarded as means to ends. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/46 "2011-03-30T20:44:52Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > Well, since you only have this one story as an example, my guess is that you never “forgot” to get your paper signed again, and you weren’t ever punished again like that. Seems to me lesson learned. Sounds to me like she never had a problem BEFORE that either, which makes this post an example of absurd post hoc reasoning at best. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/47 "2011-03-30T20:46:49Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > This (I dunno **Ana** , maybe you know already) is an example of the philosophy called _consequentialism._ “The end justifies the means” is its common expression. Ie, all that matters is achieving the desired outcome. Any undesired outcomes - especially anything intangible, like emotional trauma, that anyone might conceivably lie about - are to be accepted as the price of the ticket. > > Another ever-popular philosophy among authoritarians, appealing to their belief that people are best regarded as means to ends. No, not really, and please don’t put word in my mouth. I never said that it was justified, just that it appears to have had the desired outcome, with regards to her behavior. (Which she claimed it didn’t) ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/48 "2011-03-30T20:52:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sounds to me like she never had a problem BEFORE that either, which makes this post an example of absurd post hoc reasoning at best. Seriously? Then how else would you determine the effectiveness of a punishment, if not by taking repeated offenses into consideration? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/49 "2011-03-30T20:53:52Z")
I’ve heard white people, too, say they wanted to send their kids to Catholic school _for_ the discipline–by which they didn’t mean only corporal punishment, but that was certainly part of it. > [@astorian](#): > > What do we make of this? That many families WANT their kids to get a good butt whipping from time to time, just to keep them in line? That many think it’s the only way to instill the discipline they think their kids need? Absolutely. And this thinking is certainly not limited to Catholics of whatever color. I personally hear it more from Baptists, Presbyterians, and diffident agnostics. I’ve heard grown men reminisce with fondness and admiration about being beaten–I think the word is appropriate in this specific case–with their fathers’ belts. “Straightened _me_ out, I tell you what!” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/50 "2011-03-30T21:00:03Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Another ever-popular philosophy among authoritarians, appealing to their belief that people are best regarded as means to ends. Consequentialism is fairly popular among a lot of people. I don’t think it’s an authoritarian/non authoritarian split, because there are a lot of authoritarians who are fond of deontologicalism, too. And for that matter, some of the people arguing against corporal punishment in this thread are doing it for consequentialist reasons and others for deontological reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/51 "2011-03-30T21:00:56Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > Seriously? Then how else would you determine the effectiveness of a punishment, if not by taking repeated offenses into consideration? You can conclude the teacher got what he/she wanted out of it, but I don’t think you can draw a meaningful conclusion from punishment for a one-time minor “offense.” It begs for _post hoc_ misinterpretation. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/52 "2011-03-30T21:27:29Z")
Corporal punishment and adult depression and suicide: [http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP3.pdf](http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP3.pdf) Corporal punishment and future depressiona nd violent tendencies: [http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CPB1R.pdf](http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CPB1R.pdf) Crimonologic effects of Corporal Punishment: [http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP106%20%20Crimingenic%20nature%20of%20CP.pdf](http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP106%20%20Crimingenic%20nature%20of%20CP.pdf) Two reports specific to education and corporal punishment: > **[Corporal Punishment of Children | American Civil Liberties Union](https://www.aclu.org/documents/corporal-punishment-children)** > > Corporal punishment -- most often, paddling -- can cause deep bruising or other lasting physical or mental injury. Furthermore, it creates a violent, degrading school environment in which all students -- and particularly students with disabilities --... Council of Europe’s educating pamphlet: > **[QuestionAnswer\_en.pdf](https://www.coe.int/t/dg3/children/pdf/QuestionAnswer_en.pdf)** Then there is the third Geneva Convention, which describe the basic rights to be granted to prisoners of war. (Adult, soldiers, here) [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2] > [@](#): > > [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2] > Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times > be protected, particularly against acts of > violence or intimidation and against insults > and public curiosity. > Measures of reprisal against prisoners of > war are prohibited. > [/SIZE][/FONT] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] Full tect: [http://www.mineaction.org/downloads/Emine%20Policy%20Pages/Geneva%20Conventions/Geneva%20Convention%20III.pdf](http://www.mineaction.org/downloads/Emine%20Policy%20Pages/Geneva%20Conventions/Geneva%20Convention%20III.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/53 "2011-03-30T21:33:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He now believes that slapping children in the face in front of other children is proper discipline. Yep, he turned out just fine. I learned a valuable lesson in 60 seconds. It didn’t take a barrage of psycho-babble from a school administration to understand my feelings and teach me the error of my ways. It wasn’t a beating. It wasn’t much of a slap. It WAS however a dramatic wake-up call followed by a lecture. DONE. My best teachers were nuns. They didn’t get paid squat yet they were the most caring, best educators I ever had. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/54 "2011-03-30T21:38:18Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Gregory Aymond, now bishop of New Orleans, has abolished the use of corporal punishment in Catholic schools under his authority. > > Believe it or not, the bishop is being loudly and enthusiastically opposed by thousands of African American families! Is there a genuine racial issue here? Maybe the percentage of white parents who support corporal punishment is the same as the percentage of black parents and Bishop Aymond just happens to preside over a predominantly black school district. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/55 "2011-03-30T21:43:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I learned a valuable lesson in 60 seconds. It didn’t take a barrage of psycho-babble from a school administration to understand my feelings and teach me the error of my ways. It wasn’t a beating. It wasn’t much of a slap. It WAS however a dramatic wake-up call followed by a lecture. DONE. My best teachers were nuns. They didn’t get paid squat yet they were the most caring, best educators I ever had. I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of people learned that hitting was just another kind of “love”? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/56 "2011-03-30T21:43:24Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > What **Magiver** did is not romanticizing, really. More refusing to question the practice. “Worked for my generation, I turned out fine, that settles it.” > > It’s understandable. Corporal punishment is most often defended by people with an unquestioning attitude toward established authority. Well yes, it did work for my generation. It worked for my parent’s generation, and their parents… It’s not a function of unquestioned authority, it’s a reality that getting spanked is part of the mix of punishment for bad behavior. [It’s not a Simpsons episode.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFgR0m-9FmM) of unending paddling. I was paddled exactly twice by my dad. I’ve since forgotten the first one but the 2nd was for using his table saw. My dad was a big man and afraid to paddle because of his size but he damn well wanted me to understand I wasn’t to touch that saw. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/57 "2011-03-30T21:44:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I learned a valuable lesson in 60 seconds. It didn’t take a barrage of psycho-babble from a school administration to understand my feelings and teach me the error of my ways. It wasn’t a beating. It wasn’t much of a slap. It WAS however a dramatic wake-up call followed by a lecture. DONE. My best teachers were nuns. They didn’t get paid squat yet they were the most caring, best educators I ever had. I know hitting someone would take less effort than reading a bunch of psychobabble, but I urge you to read the links in post #52. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/58 "2011-03-30T21:48:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of people learned that hitting was just another kind of “love”? Unless you want to argue that punishment is not an effective tool for bad behavior then spanking is one of many ways to punish someone. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/59 "2011-03-30T21:54:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I know hitting someone would take less effort than reading a bunch of psychobabble, but I urge you to read the links in post #52. :rolleyes: Well that explains why Kennedy went to war in Vietnam. You’re equating a spanking with family violence. You could just as easily substitute mental abuse. You really can’t handle the concept of appropriate disciplinary procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/60 "2011-03-30T22:01:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Is there a genuine racial issue here? Maybe the percentage of white parents who support corporal punishment is the same as the percentage of black parents and Bishop Aymond just happens to preside over a predominantly black school district. There are definitely significant [racial differences in attitudes toward corporal punishment](http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/sites/default/files/51_fig02.jpg), so it seems plausible that this is a genuine racial / cultural issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515.md?page=4)