# Black Parents Demand that Catholic School Beat Their Kids? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515 "2011-03-30T15:18:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/61 "2011-03-31T02:27:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. I’m just refusing to romanticize beating children, or the effects of doing so. Beating a gay guy for being sinful, beating your wife for not being submissive enough, torturing a prisoner because he won’t confess to what you think he did; that’s just the same principle as “corporal punishment” taken into adulthood. That is ridiculous. Even for you. Getting a few swats with a paddle by the principal is not in the same universe of the things you mention. You have no idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/62 "2011-03-31T12:00:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And this is why it was rarely used but so effective. > > I went to a Catholic school. We didn’t have discipline problems. Sister Mary Wooden Ruler saw to that. The parents who are protesting know it works and want their kids to get the same no-nonsense education they got. Sister Mary Wooden Ruler, administered whenever I used “the devil’s hand”, got me retrained as a rightie in pre-K. Only, not completely: I’m still a leftie when it comes to sports and still sometimes have problems figuring out how to use a fork and knife. I assume you’re also ok with having a kindergartner pee herself repeatedly because she doesn’t magically know how to ask for permission to use the toilet in French, then being beaten for peeing herself. The nuns school I attended for most of kindergarten and until 8th grade didn’t consider corporal punishment acceptable. That alone places it above the previous two and forever will. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/63 "2011-03-31T12:02:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That is ridiculous. Even for you. Getting a few swats with a paddle by the principal is not in the same universe of the things you mention. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Paddling is what you do when you wish to cross the lake in a boat. When you are hit with a stick, you are hit with a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/64 "2011-03-31T12:10:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well yes, it did work for my generation. It worked for my parent’s generation, and their parents… Have you actually _read_ history? It “worked” all right; it worked to help create generation ofter generation of thugs. A twisted society where domestic violence and violence to deal with people socially disapproved of was considered acceptable or outright admirable. A society where the strong brutalized the weak, where the popular beat or killed the unpopular. Exactly as they were taught in school. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/65 "2011-03-31T13:14:17Z")
I’m not particularly pro spanking but I don’t have any strong feelings against it either. I do wonder why the anti-spanking folks don’t apply their arguments to other forms of punishment. If a kid with failing grades has his X-Box taken away aren’t we teaching him that it’s okay for the strong to take from the weak? If we ground Suzy for staying out late without calling aren’t we teaching her that the strong can force you to be where you don’t want to be? We’re teaching them that the strong can inflict pain on the weak whenever we punish a child. Or do the reasons behind the punishment matter at all? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/66 "2011-03-31T13:50:03Z")
Violence is in a separate category from other punishments. The psychological effects just aren’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/67 "2011-03-31T17:26:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > :rolleyes: Well that explains why Kennedy went to war in Vietnam. > > You’re equating a spanking with family violence. You could just as easily substitute mental abuse. You really can’t handle the concept of appropriate disciplinary procedures. No, those links all very specifically separate corporal punishment from other forms of violence. Read 'em and weep. The science is dead square against you on this one. And there is much, much more out there. Do some due diligence and then get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/68 "2011-03-31T17:34:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well yes, it did work for my generation. It worked for my parent’s generation, and their parents… You say it worked because it worked for you, so you don’t care about the exceptions. Nowadays a lot of us care about the exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/69 "2011-03-31T17:38:23Z")
Corporal punishment does not make sense unless it is immediately applied. It generally attaches as a consequence to being caught. We got licks in high school. I got them once because the teacher decided that everyone needed to get licks to know what the punishment was about. So they decouple the significance of the punishment to behavior even more. The other problem with corporal punishment is that there are no standards established. It’s entirely up to the person delivering them. Which just furthers the authoritarian nature of the punishment. It’s not really about misbehavior, it’s coming to the attention of authority. And people wonder why bullying is so prevalent in schools. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/70 "2011-03-31T18:31:33Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > No, those links all very specifically separate corporal punishment from other forms of violence. Read 'em and weep. The science is dead square against you on this one. > > And there is much, much more out there. Do some due diligence and then get back to us. Complete and utter bullshit. See [Larzelere](http://ches.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/)’s numerous meta-analyses of studies on this issue, showing favourable outcomes for children who have been corporally punished, or his submission to the UN’s Study on Violence Against Children, submitted on behalf of the American Society of Pediatricians, [here](http://ches.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/acp.sub.32005.pdf). Alternatively, you can read his article [There’s no sound evidence to support child spanking bans](http://ches.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/nztabconts.47.pdf), to whit: > [@](#): > > The outcomes of corporal punishment compared unfavorably with alternatives only when used too severely or as the primary disciplinary method. The optimal usage, called conditional spanking, led to better child outcomes than 10 of 13 disciplinary tactics, generally with 2- to 6-year-old children. This shows that the optimal use of nonabusive spanking is to enforce milder disciplinary tactics when children are defiant. (The same article goes on to debunk numerous studies that pertain to show a link between corporal punishment and unfavourable outcomes for children in adulthood.) ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/71 "2011-03-31T18:35:13Z")
Summary of the Larzelere-Kuhn meta-analysis [here](http://ches.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/mappvalsum.pdf): > [@](#): > > Larzelere and Kuhn’s summary of their latest meta-analysis and its importance. It is the first scientific review that compares child outcomes of physical punishment vs. alternative tactics that parents could use instead. The authors demonstrate that the following alternative disciplinary measures had significantly worse outcomes than conditional spanking for either noncompliance (N) or antisocial aggression (A) or both: Reasoning (N & A), Threats or verbal power assertion (N), Privilege removal (N), Time out or isolation (A), Ignoring (N), Love withdrawal (A), Restraint or physical power assertion (N), Child-determined end to time out (N), Scolding (A), and Diverting (A). Scolding and time out both lead to more childhood aggression than corporal punishment. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/72 "2011-03-31T18:36:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Paddling is what you do when you wish to cross the lake in a boat. When you are hit with a stick, you are hit with a stick. And when the stick is flat—_like a paddle_—and the kid bends over and receives whacks on his but with it, it’s called _paddling_. Glad to help. Don’t mention it. The whole fighting ignorance thing and all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/73 "2011-03-31T18:47:28Z")
The “paddle” used in my school look almost exactly like [this](http://www.glynn.k12.ga.us/BHS/academics/junior/gunning/jaylynner36139/Paddle02.jpg), and left marks that lasted days(at best). ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/74 "2011-03-31T18:57:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The “paddle” used in my school look almost exactly like [this](http://www.glynn.k12.ga.us/BHS/academics/junior/gunning/jaylynner36139/Paddle02.jpg), and left marks that lasted days(at best). Our teachers had customized ones usually made by the guys in the wood shop class as a gift. A few of them looked like that but we also had a coach who owned the “THHHEEE LOONNGGG BBBOARRD!” as he affectionately referred to it. Oddly, I don’t think he ever used it though. Most paddles had lots of writing on them because you got to sign it after you got paddled. Some teacher’s paddles were a veritable Who’s Who of class hooliganism and we loved studying the names. A few really old teachers had parent-child signatures on their paddles which was an unusual honor. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/75 "2011-03-31T19:17:02Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Our teachers had customized ones usually made by the guys in the wood shop class as a gift. A few of them looked like that but we also had a coach who owned the “THHHEEE LOONNGGG BBBOARRD!” as he affectionately referred to it. Oddly, I don’t think he ever used it though. Most paddles had lots of writing on them because you got to sign it after you got paddled. Some teacher’s paddles were a veritable Who’s Who of class hooliganism and we loved studying the names. A few really old teachers had parent-child signatures on their paddles which was an unusual honor. How cute! Our principal was more into fear and intimidation(he liked to point out the rough edges and splinters before laying into your pantsless ass). Do you think we could have turned it into something “honorable” if we signed each other’s bruised butts and legs? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/76 "2011-04-01T02:31:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Have you actually _read_ history? It “worked” all right; it worked to help create generation ofter generation of thugs. A twisted society where domestic violence and violence to deal with people socially disapproved of was considered acceptable or outright admirable. A society where the strong brutalized the weak, where the popular beat or killed the unpopular. Exactly as they were taught in school. I’d stack up my catholic school class of graduates against any school. We’re anything but thugs. Paddling was one of many ways to discipline a child. Not only did I and my classmates not prey on the weak we were more likely to protect the weak from bullies. FYI, we still stay in contact with each other as a group and that’s 40 years later. We were and are a very cohesive group because of the educational foundation we received. It went well beyond reading and writing. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/77 "2011-04-04T18:51:04Z")
I’m seeing two different extremes in this thread: 1. rare, likely-not-bruising paddlings administered to children from average middle-class families who laughed about it with their classmates and forgot about it the next day. 2. brutal smackings complete with bruises administered to children that still hurt the next day and may have happened more often. The child also probably didn’t have the same familial structure/support of the child from 1). I think there’s got to be a middle ground between these two. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/78 "2011-04-04T20:48:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I got smacked by a nun when I was in the 5th grade. Right across the face. It was for insulting a kid for being effeminate. She literally slapped the stupid out of me while reading me the riot act in front of everybody. You are clueless about the Catholic Church. Clueless. Strong evidence against the propriety of this kind of punishment is the way that people who defend their own beatings so often end up uttering non-sequitant nonsense like this. It’s a sign of abuse, you know… ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/79 "2011-04-04T20:50:46Z")
Why conservative-leaning types would trust a government employee–a lazy good for nothing teacher of all things–to know where to draw the line between spanking and beating, is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515/80 "2011-04-04T20:58:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Why conservative-leaning types would trust a government employee–a lazy good for nothing teacher of all things–to know where to draw the line between spanking and beating, is beyond me. They don’t actually oppose government; they just oppose benevolent government. Welfare, foreign aid, civil rights, education; those are bad, because there’s a risk they may actually help people. Bombing, conquest, persecuting gays, executions, hitting kids - those are “good” government. Malignance both petty and large scale has always been a core value of conservatism throughout human history, whatever the era, whatever the country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-parents-demand-that-catholic-school-beat-their-kids/576515.md?page=5)