# "black sheep" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 24, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645 "2018-06-24T01:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jpbarber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@jpbarber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jpbarber)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/1 "2018-06-24T01:15:31Z")
This reference to “black sheep” goes back further than I found in a post already on here. There is one that goes back even further than the one posted below, as a misinterpretation of a verse in Genesis. I don’t trust the documentation though. The first record of ‘black sheep’ in a derogatory sense that I can find in print is from an English Puritan who emigrated to America in 1635, the appropriately named Thomas Shepard, in the evangelical text The Sincere Convert, 1640: Cast out all the Prophane people among us, as drunkards, swearers, whores, lyers, which the Scripture brands for blacke sheepe, and condemnes them in a 100. places. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/2 "2018-06-24T01:25:56Z")
[Here’s a link to the column in question.](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1947/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-black-sheep/) Welcome to the Dope, jpbarber! ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/3 "2018-06-24T04:25:01Z")
Who’s the black sheep? What’s the black sheep? Know not who I am, or when I’m coming, so you sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/4 "2018-06-24T14:19:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Who’s the black sheep? What’s the black sheep? Know not who I am, or when I’m coming, so you sleep. So, I’m not the only person whose mind went there immediately upon seeing the thread title, eh? I guess I know what my playlist for today is going to look like. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/5 "2018-06-25T12:42:28Z")
Hosea 13, verse 15: “Even though Ephraim ran wild, the black sheep of the family. God’s tornado is on its way, roaring out of the desert. It will devastate the country, leaving a trail of ruin and wreckage. The cities will be gutted, dear possessions gone for good.” ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/6 "2018-06-25T16:35:59Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Hosea 13, verse 15: “Even though Ephraim ran wild, the black sheep of the family. God’s tornado is on its way, roaring out of the desert. It will devastate the country, leaving a trail of ruin and wreckage. The cities will be gutted, dear possessions gone for good.” Yes, but what translation of the original biblical text are you using, and when was it translated? “Black sheep” is not a Hebrew term is it? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/7 "2018-06-25T16:47:28Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Yes, but what translation of the original biblical text are you using, and when was it translated? “Black sheep” is not a Hebrew term is it? Black sheep have always been a genetic anomaly, so why wouldn’t there have been any Black sheep in the herds of the ancient Israelites? So, there would have to be a term for them in Hebrew unless they just pointed at them and grunted. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/8 "2018-06-25T17:53:20Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Yes, but what translation of the original biblical text are you using, and when was it translated? “Black sheep” is not a Hebrew term is it? I don’t see black sheep mentioned in any of these translations of Hosea 13:15: > **[Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 13:15 - Young's Literal Translation](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%2B13%3A15&version=YLT)** > > Though he among brethren produceth fruit, Come in doth an east wind, a wind of Jehovah, From a wilderness it is coming up, And it drieth up his fountain, And become dry doth his spring, It -- it spoileth a treasure -- every desirable vessel. > **[Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 13:15 - King James Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%2B13%3A15&version=KJV)** > > Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels. > **[Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 13:15 - 1599 Geneva Bible](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%2B13%3A15&version=GNV)** > > Though he grew up among his brethren, an East wind shall come, even the wind of the Lord shall come up from the wilderness, and dry up his vein, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels. > **[Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 13:15 - New Revised Standard Version Updated...](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%2B13%3A15&version=NRSVUE)** > > Although he may flourish among rushes, the east wind shall come, a blast from the LORD, rising from the wilderness, and his fountain shall dry up; his spring shall be parched. It shall strip his treasury of every precious thing. > **[Bible Gateway passage: Hosea 13:15 - 21st Century King James Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea%2B13%3A15&version=KJ21)** > > Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come; the wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up; He shall despoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/9 "2018-06-25T18:59:41Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Hosea 13, verse 15: “Even though Ephraim ran wild, the black sheep of the family. God’s tornado is on its way, roaring out of the desert. It will devastate the country, leaving a trail of ruin and wreckage. The cities will be gutted, dear possessions gone for good.” [52 different Bibles-no sheep.](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hosea%2013%3A15) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/10 "2018-06-25T19:25:57Z")
I wouldn’t say that black sheep are a genetic “anomaly”. Just that it’s an undesired naturally occurring trait. Note that the appearance of a black sheep in a flock doesn’t just mean that you are not going to get the preferred wool from _that_ sheep, but that you have a _flock_ of lesser value overall since you aren’t likely to get all white sheep in the future and others might not want to purchase your sheep for breeding. One black sheep is a bad thing for the _whole_ flock. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/11 "2018-06-25T19:35:02Z")
What [it says](https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%22%D7%92_%D7%94%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%A2_%D7%99%D7%92_%D7%98%D7%95) is “בן אחים [יפריא]”, which may be some wordplay (אח vs אחו?), but any reference to sheep is transparently the translator’s interpretation: first, deciding that the phrase means “savage among his brothers” instead of “flourishing among reeds”, and, second, turning that into “black sheep”. Unless I am missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/12 "2018-06-25T23:15:41Z")
> [@jpbarber](#): > > The first record of ‘black sheep’ in a derogatory sense that I can find in print is from an English Puritan who emigrated to America in 1635, the appropriately named Thomas Shepard, in the evangelical text The Sincere Convert, 1640: [Here’s one from 1638:](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mlJBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA286&dq=%22the+black+sheep%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-neii9u_bAhWPNcAKHQXgBdkQuwUIKjAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20black%20sheep%22&f=false) … he sackd Tazz, Sakalkand, Sikamest &c retaliating what his own Nation had formerly suffered from the Black-sheep of that vagrant country… ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/13 "2018-06-26T23:34:43Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I wouldn’t say that black sheep are a genetic “anomaly”. Just that it’s an undesired naturally occurring trait. > > Note that the appearance of a black sheep in a flock doesn’t just mean that you are not going to get the preferred wool from _that_ sheep, but that you have a _flock_ of lesser value overall since you aren’t likely to get all white sheep in the future and others might not want to purchase your sheep for breeding. > > One black sheep is a bad thing for the _whole_ flock. The main reason it reduces the value of the flock is fleece contamination. Black fibers get caught in the wool of the white sheep, and end up in the clip. This isn’t just a problem with back sheep: it’s a characteristic of wool, you also get polypropylene contamination from bailing twine, and hair contamination from goats, all of which reduce the value of the fleece. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/14 "2018-06-27T00:30:07Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > the appearance of a black sheep in a flock doesn’t just mean that you are not going to get the preferred wool from _that_ sheep, but that you have a _flock_ of lesser value overall since you aren’t likely to get all white sheep in the future Yes, but the gene for black wool is recessive. For a black lamb to be born requires both dam and sire to carry the recessive gene. While black lambs are usually culled, or at least separated (to prevent contamination of the clip), their mothers usually aren’t, nor may it be possible to identify the father. Unless both parents are culled the gene survives. Essentially all flocks of sheep will carry the recessive black wool gene, it’s just chance and Mendelian genetics as to if/when/how often it will manifest. “Black” wool can range in colour from black to brown to yellow to silver though rarer. “Normal” white sheep are not albino, which also exist. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-sheep/816645/15 "2018-06-27T00:41:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [52 different Bibles-no sheep.](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hosea%2013%3A15) It is on that page; it’s from the version called [the Message](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%2013:14-16&version=MSG). It’s an idiomatic translation, though; you’re right that no version of the phrase “black sheep” appears in the original text.