# Black Stuff Under Eyes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 4, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066 "2008-03-04T18:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chris3278](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e7dd6/32.png) [@chris3278](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chris3278)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/1 "2008-03-04T18:41:24Z")
Actually the use of black stuff atheletes use under the eyes dates back to the Egyptians, who wore thick eyeliner to deflect the desert sun. I don’t think Andy Farkas can be coined as the pioneer to this. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/2 "2008-03-04T18:44:35Z")
Here is a link to the staff report: [Why do athletes put that black stuff under their eyes?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/meyeblack.html) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/3 "2008-03-04T21:11:21Z")
[QUOTE=chris3278] Actually the use of black stuff atheletes use under the eyes dates back to the Egyptians, who wore thick eyeliner to deflect the desert sun. I don’t think Andy Farkas can be coined as the pioneer to this. [/QUOTE] First of all, you’d have to establish that, in fact, Egyptians of times past wore thick eyeliner to “deflect” desert sun. Second, you’d have to establish that “modern” athletes that use eyeblack do so because Egyptians did so. Otherwise, even if others have done similar things in the past, it’s just another example of parallel development on an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/4 "2008-03-04T21:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=chris3278] Actually the use of black stuff atheletes use under the eyes dates back to the Egyptians, who wore thick eyeliner to deflect the desert sun. I don’t think Andy Farkas can be coined as the pioneer to this. [/QUOTE] Fascinating. I don’t suppose you have any sources for this? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/5 "2008-03-05T00:57:22Z")
Nice report, **Bricker**. I guess you can never discount the “cool” factor! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/6 "2008-03-05T01:00:23Z")
Nice report. By the way, this issue was covered recently on [Mythbusters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_%28season_6%29#Eye_Black) ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/7 "2008-03-05T02:22:14Z")
Can anyone explain _how_ it reduces glare, since (perhaps with rare exceptions like Cher) you can’t see your own cheeks? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/8 "2008-03-05T03:03:49Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] Can anyone explain _how_ it reduces glare, since (perhaps with rare exceptions like Cher) you can’t see your own cheeks? [/QUOTE] I can see mine. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/9 "2008-03-05T03:14:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Fascinating. I don’t suppose you have any sources for this? [/QUOTE] The use of [Kohl in ancient Egypt, according to the museum of the University of Pennsylvania](http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/exhibits/online_exhibits/body_modification/bodmodpaint.shtml): > [@](#): > > Cosmetics also served a practical purpose in Egypt and India. Kohl was worn as eyeliner, and helped to cut the glare from the sun. Today, atheletes put black (and white) smudges under their eyes for the same purpose. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/10 "2008-03-05T03:18:09Z")
With respect to that statement on the website, in the absence of some textual reference contemporaneous to the use of kohl for that purpose, one would think this is an after the fact explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/11 "2008-03-05T03:27:20Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] With respect to that statement on the website, in the absence of some textual reference contemporaneous to the use of kohl for that purpose, one would think this is an after the fact explanation. [/QUOTE] Perhaps, but one would think[The University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology](http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/about/vision_mission/mission2.shtml) would be pretty careful about what it put forth as fact. From its mission statement: > [@](#): > > The Museum will continue to undertake field and laboratory research to produce significant knowledge about the human past and present. > > The Museum will develop engaging exhibits, educational programs, and electronic communications about the human condition which provide opportunities to experience authentic cultural materials and contribute meaningful and enjoyable experiences about what it means to be human. > > The Museum will continue to be an international resource in research, collections, and outreach. The Museum is committed to contributing to the education of the University of Pennsylvania students, to serving the people of the City of Philadelphia, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the United States, and the world, and to making archaeology and anthropology relevant to global concerns. I think it is a pretty good cite, not to be dismissed out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/12 "2008-03-05T14:48:56Z")
All I need now is some evidence that 1940s-era Redskins fullback Andy Farkas was a Egyptologist, and we’re all set. Seriously – since it works, it’s not outside the bounds of reason to imagine that some humans in recorded history figured the process out at least once before 1942 – although I suspect that marking one’s hometown area code is an exclusively modern innovation. But I tried to focus on why athletes do it, and I think a clinical study showing glare reduction is stronger evidence than mentioning an ancient Egyptian practice. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/13 "2008-03-05T14:54:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] But I tried to focus on why athletes do it, and I think a clinical study showing glare reduction is stronger evidence than mentioning an ancient Egyptian practice. [/QUOTE] Though it might be instructive to point out that athletes and Egyptians did it for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/14 "2008-03-05T15:22:12Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Perhaps, but one would think[The University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology](http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/about/vision_mission/mission2.shtml) would be pretty careful about what it put forth as fact. From its mission statement: I think it is a pretty good cite, not to be dismissed out of hand. [/QUOTE] It’s a nothing cite. It is not peer-reviewed, and it’s quite possibly based upon speculation, which is what I was saying. In the absence of something contemporaneous, it’s worthless. Sadly, we often have a habit of trying to impose our own suppositions on the past, making the assumption that we have figured things out. See, for example, any of a number of suppositions about the origins of nursery rymes. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/15 "2008-03-05T15:48:27Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] In the absence of something contemporaneous, it’s worthless. [/QUOTE] So, any cites regarding ancient Egypt must be accompanied by **hieroglyphics**? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/16 "2008-03-05T16:00:50Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] It is not peer-reviewed… [/QUOTE] [Here is a cite from _Lancet_](http://download.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/1473-3099/PIIS1473309905702620.pdf), the peer reviewed medical jounal of the UK (registration required): > [@](#): > > Black eye paint, derived primarily from the mineral galena, **not only helped reflect the glare of the Egyptian sun** ; it also contained lead, which repelled flies and organisms that caused eye disease and blindness (including trachoma). I regret they did not include hieroglyphics. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/17 "2008-03-05T18:10:41Z")
Again, it isn’t a reference to a contemporary documentation of why they used kohl. ANYONE can speculate why they used kohl, and the attractive assumption is that they used it to cut down on glare. But unless the ancient Egyptians themselves tell us that is why they used it, we are only speculating. They might well have used it simply to look fierce. And, by the way, your link shows “page not found.” Further, the Lancet is a medical journal. The author of the article is not likely to be a student of ancient Egypt. The reference to the inclusion of lead makes me skeptical because I don’t easily see the makers of kohl going, “You know, if I put lead in this, I should be able to drive away the flies and organisms that cause disease and blindness like trachoma.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/18 "2008-03-05T18:17:25Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Further, the Lancet is a medical journal. [/QUOTE] So my peer-reviewed cite wasn’t written by a True Scotsman. I shall endeavor to locate one, for your continued disapproval. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/19 "2008-03-05T18:19:54Z")
Try this link: [http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473309905702620/abstract](http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473309905702620/abstract) ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066/20 "2008-03-09T05:21:14Z")
As a guy who loves to be critical, I must say this article was really good. Very well written, entertaining, and informative. Of course it helps that the question wasn’t a difficult one, but that doesn’t really make the job of writing a column easy. This staff report really rivals Cecil’s recent work. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-stuff-under-eyes/440066.md?page=2)