# Blackjack at the casino: "He/she took the dealer's bust card!" **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130 "2019-01-21T01:16:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/1 "2019-01-21T01:16:54Z")
I’ve been playing blackjack at the casino recently, and I hear this all of the time. An inexperienced player hits on a hand that he/she should not have hit on and busts, taking a high card (a 10,J,Q,K,A) and then the dealer does not bust on his/her low hand. Then a player complains that the inexperienced player “took” the dealer’s bust card. My thoughts: First, blackjack is not a game against other players, but against the dealer/house. Second, any card has an equal chance of coming out of the deck. So, the inexperienced player could just as easily have taken a lower card and then left the dealer’s bust card to come up next. My question: Is there any validity at all to the suggestion that an inexperienced player can hurt another player by making a foolish hit/stand choice at a casino blackjack table? I say no, none, not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/2 "2019-01-21T01:32:32Z")
You are correct. One player cannot damage another player’s chances. People just like having someone else to blame if they lose. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/3 "2019-01-21T01:41:35Z")
No validity at all. It’s been proven over and over again. Those complaining are dumb players thinking they are smart players, or simply miserable losers. Truly smart players know better. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/4 "2019-01-21T01:53:54Z")
From [The Wizard Of Odds](https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/blackjack/), an expert in the mathematics of games of chance: > [@](#): > > \*\*Question: \*\* Every time I go to the Blackjack games there is a grumpy simple individual, who wants to stone some poor soul for "messing up the shoe.” Is there any truth to this? > > Jim from Las Vegas > > \*\*Answer: \*\*In ten years of running this site I steadfastly denied the myth that bad players cause other players to lose in blackjack. However, you are the lucky 1000th person to ask, so I took the trouble to prove it by random simulation. The rules I put in are the standard liberal Vegas Strip rules as follows. > > 6 decks > Dealer stands on soft 17 > Double on any first two cards allowed > Double after split allowed > Late surrender allowed > Player may re-split to four hands, including aces > Cut card used > > First, I had both players follow correct total-dependent basic strategy. Over almost 1.6 billion rounds, the loss of the first player to act was 0.289%, and the second player to act of 0.288%. > > Second, I had the first player follow the same correct strategy, and the second player follow the same correct strategy except: > > Always hit 12 to 16 > Always double 9 to 11 > Split any pair > Never surrender > Never soft double > > In a simulation of 1.05 billion hands the loss of the first player was 0.282%, and the second player was 11.260%. So the house edge of the basic strategy playing first player was almost the same, regardless of whether the second player played correctly or wildly incorrectly. I hope this puts and end the third baseman myth, but I doubt it. As I have said many times, the more ridiculous a belief is, the more tenaciously it tends to be held. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/5 "2019-01-21T02:20:31Z")
I have had sort of the opposite happen to me - I hit a hard 16 with the dealer showing a 10 (which, in a game with 3 or more decks, is the correct move), got a 2, and the dealer turned over a 5 and drew a 3, which pushed not only my 18 but the 18 of the person next to me, who then commented to the woman he was with that my “mistake” had just cost him. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/6 "2019-01-21T04:11:01Z")
If anyone bitched to me about that, I’d ask (not quietly) how they “knew” what the next card was going to be. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/7 "2019-01-21T04:45:49Z")
Along the same lines are poker players who want to hold the dealer responsible for the cards that appear. Phil Hellmuth (among the most experienced and successful players ever) is notable for this. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/8 "2019-01-21T05:02:59Z")
Think of it this way: Casino gambling is an activity where considerable to tremendous sums of money are continually at sake, the players don’t know each other personally, there’s a big luck element, and every move has the potential to alter the course of the game. OF COURSE people are going to get irrational. It happened with Island flippin’ Fruit, for crying out loud. (I’ll remember that epic “Last call for drinking beer, last call for Follow Me!” rant for the rest of my days.) Heck, why do you think baseball has so many superstitions? I’ve never personally witnessed anyone gripe about “taking the dealer’s bust card”, but it’s completely plausible. I imagine any experienced dealer could tell you more than a few stories. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/9 "2019-01-21T05:45:23Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > Think of it this way: Casino gambling is an activity where considerable to tremendous sums of money are continually at sake, the players don’t know each other personally, there’s a big luck element, and every move has the potential to alter the course of the game. OF COURSE people are going to get irrational. Add another huge factor: You’re playing a game where the odds are against you. The normal outcome of any casino game is that you lose. Obviously, the people who are playing in casinos don’t accept this; they imagine they’re going to win. So when they lose they don’t want to accept the reality that the reason they lost at Blackjack was because they chose to play Blackjack. They want something or someone they can blame besides themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/10 "2019-01-21T05:56:57Z")
After the fact it is certain that a players actions can have an impact on other players. Over a great many trials, no. But for a specific given hand, yes. To a casual gambler the odds over time are less important than the hand they just won or lost. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/11 "2019-01-21T06:09:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > After the fact it is certain that a players actions can have an impact on other players. Over a great many trials, no. But for a specific given hand, yes. . That is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/12 "2019-01-21T07:26:46Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Truly smart players know better. Oh, the irony. ‘Truly Smart’ players don’t play. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/13 "2019-01-21T07:39:23Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Oh, the irony. ‘Truly Smart’ players don’t play. That is also incorrect. A truly smart player can play perfect strategy an lose only a little bit, while taking advantage of the casino bonuses and freebies, and thus come out ahead of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/14 "2019-01-21T07:40:15Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That is incorrect. Wouldn’t one person’s choice (I’m feelin’ lucky so I hit on 19) effect the other ‘downstream players’, but whether positively or negatively is not forseeable unless you are the best ever card counter? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/15 "2019-01-21T07:44:57Z")
yes I heard whining and bitching when I was in Laughlin a couple of years ago …… I told the dealer I played for me and screw anyone else who didn’t like it because I was 500 a ahead before the other asses showed up I didn’t stay that was cause I didn’t quit when I knew the cards were going to go the other way …….but I was smashed and it was fun …… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/16 "2019-01-21T11:54:28Z")
_In the long run_ 3rd baseman’s play will normally[sup]\*[/sup] help as often it hurts, but it may be human nature to look at actual results. Even I, playing backgammon may see the opponent roll 6-6 and think “Drat! If I’d hit him he’d have fanned!” Since it can be annoying to be criticized by the other players, I recommend not sitting at 3rd base at a Twenty-One table. - - I write “normally” because, believe it or don’t, many Vegas dealers know whether or not the top card is a ten, and are quite capable of dealing the _second_ card instead of the top card. If 3rd baseman takes a hit, the _dealer gets his choice of three cards instead of two._ (IIRC some cheating dealers will have a confederate at 3rd base just for this reason.) Obviously you should avoid tables where the dealer appears to be “expert.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/17 "2019-01-21T14:13:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > My question: Is there any validity at all to the suggestion that an inexperienced player can hurt another player by making a foolish hit/stand choice at a casino blackjack table? I say no, none, not at all. It’s flatly stupid is what it is. Of course it’s all random. A weird play is as likely to hurt the house as help it. I find this behaviour immensely irritating; I play perfect strategy but even then I get shit for some things (e.g. hitting a 12 against a 2, which is correct in most games) and hate it when other players are given flak no matter how they play. My standard reply is “My cards, my chips.” ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/18 "2019-01-21T14:27:19Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That is incorrect. It is NOT incorrect, and can be demonstrated by the simple fact that there are times when the decisions of the downstream players results in a loss for upstream players. What would be incorrect is an assertion that, before a downstream player acts, his choice of actions will be guaranteed to have a negative impact on the upstream players if he/she doesn’t play “perfectly”. After all, you rarely hear the upstream players congratulate the downstream player for hitting when he shouldn’t have, taking a small card, and then the dealer busts, when the dealer would have won with the small card taken by the “bad” play. Yet that happens at least as often in the case of downstream players utilizing less-than-optimal strategy, as noted upthread. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/19 "2019-01-21T14:35:10Z")
If you really want to annoy other players at a blackjack table, find one that has the “push” side bet (where a push pays 10:1) and play with the [proper strategy](https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/images/tiesidebet_h17.gif) for it, which works to maximize your chance of pushing. Be prepared for a torrent of abuse the first time you hit a 16 against a 4, or any other “wrong” play. The house edge is actually decent for a side bet (something like 0.24%) if you play it correctly, but boy does it anger other players. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130/20 "2019-01-21T14:43:06Z")
Exactly as many times as someone “takes the dealer’s bust card”, they would also take a card that ultimately hurts the dealer and benefits the players. But no one notices when that happens, but they always notice when the opposite happens. Additionally, no one gets angry at a player for hitting on 9, getting 19, and “taking the dealer’s bust card” - they only get angry when a player makes a borderline or incorrect decision, which doesn’t make any sense itself. How does the player playing well or badly affect whether you can blame them for taking the dealer’s bust card? It makes just as much sense to blame the player for taking a bust card when he hits on a 9. It’s purely superstitious and unfounded. One time I was on a long waiting list for a poker game and decided to sit down at a $5-500 blackjack table to kill time. I just bet $5 each hand, but I was playing in the last seat. The guy next to me was betting $200-500 a hand, and was being an asshole. I noticed once that I made a marginal decision (maybe hitting a 16 against a 7 or something), then I “took the dealer’s bust card” and the guy went nuts about it. I then proceeded to make moderately wrong plays on purpose - and every time the guy ranted to the rest of the table about how I lost him $300 over my $5 bet. I wasn’t actually harming him, so the only harm he was going through was self-inflicted based on his irrational view of the situation, which amused me. He was basically beating himself up. And since he was an asshole, it was worth the $30 or 40 I lost making him go nuts. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blackjack-at-the-casino-he-she-took-the-dealers-bust-card/828130.md?page=2)