# Blacks and crime in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809 "2012-09-05T23:42:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/1 "2012-09-05T23:42:19Z")
I was told to take this to another thread, so here we are. Common sense says this could be a bit contentious so I’m starting it Great Debates but I would appreciate it if it could be treated as a General Question unless someone starts ruining things for the rest of us or you feel that you have to make a non GQ-specific answer. So, a third of black men in the US end up in jail\* during their life time. Either (a) the system is horrifically racist (b) blacks are genetically massively predispositioned to crime (I think we can reject both of these ideas as insane) or © other stuff is going on, most likely that the system, by which I mean more than the court/justice/pliuce system but the entirety of society from birth is slightly racist against black people but the system is far too harsh against criminals in general and far too prone to create criminals in the slightly-outcast, again in general - and these two things combine to create enormous wastes of the talent of black youth. So what’s really going on? I don’t think you get this really peculiar more {ethnic minority}-than {ethnic majority} thing going on in most countries. I’m all ears. \*Note that I am aware there is a difference between jail and prison in the US. This is not a difference I understand and as it’s indiosyncratic I am not going to bother quite understanding it either, except that I think that almost all US prisons are still US jail so the word jail will do! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/2 "2012-09-06T00:17:20Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > So, a third of black men in the US end up in jail\* during their life time. > > Either > > (a) the system is horrifically racist > (b) blacks are genetically massively predispositioned to crime > > (I think we can reject both of these ideas as insane)[p Why? The former is pretty well established. The latter _is_ nonsense though. Also, blacks are disproportionately poor; poor people are more likely to be punished for crime, more likely to be convicted regardless of if they actually committed a crime (if for no other reason than lacking access to good lawyers), and more likely to commit the sorts of crimes that get prison time instead of a fine and a Stern Lecture. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/3 "2012-09-06T00:28:13Z")
**Der Trihs** in one: the system is horribly racist. Look at the difference in unemployment figures for blacks and for whites. “Equal Opportunity” does not exist in this country. It isn’t at all surprising this is reflected in crime statistics. It’s also reflected in health statistics: blacks are not as healthy as whites, and poverty is the single biggest contributor to this inequality. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/4 "2012-09-06T00:38:16Z")
Uh huh. A group of people overwhelmingly commit more crime, make less use of utterly free education, have much less stable home lives for children, abuse drugs and alcohol much more frequently, commit domestic violence much more frequently, have higher rates of problem gambling and so on and so forth. And the reason the group is incarcerated at higher rates is simply that the system is racist. Nothing at all to do with behaviour or personal choices. The people within the group bear no responsibility whatsoever and not a singe one of them needs to alter their behaviour. Nope, their predicament is entirely due to racism. :rolleyes: This sort of bullshit form lefties is itself a major cause of the problems experienced by Blacks. When people are told constantly that they are not, and can not be, responsible for their lives and actions, it is hardly surprising that they do not live their lives or act responsibly. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/5 "2012-09-06T00:39:26Z")
Culture is another factor. When the popular culture for young black males is to idolize and emulate “gangster” behavior and denigrate integration into “white” (read: regular society derided as ‘white’) and education, it may just tend to result in exactly what that culture worships. But this kind of culture is by no means unique to young African Americans. Italian American culture was at least somewhat associated with criminal culture for most of the 20th century. The poor urban Irish had their street gang culture. Pretty much every major nation or culture has it’s various ‘gangster’ subcultures. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/6 "2012-09-06T00:50:01Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Uh huh. A group of people overwhelmingly commit more crime, make less use of utterly free education, have much less stable home lives for children, abuse drugs and alcohol much more frequently, commit domestic violence much more frequently, have higher rates of problem gambling and so on and so forth. > > And the reason the group is incarcerated at higher rates is simply that the system is racist. Nothing at all to do with behaviour or personal choices. The people within the group bear no responsibility whatsoever and not a singe one of them needs to alter their behaviour. > > Nope, their predicament is entirely due to racism. :rolleyes: > > This sort of bullshit form lefties is itself a major cause of the problems experienced by Blacks. When people are told constantly that they are not, and can not be, responsible for their lives and actions, it is hardly surprising that they do not live their lives or act responsibly. There is an annoying and retarded gangster type “black culture” (for want of a better way of putting it) in the UK. But it basically applies to a fairly small minority of black people and it’s quite clear that it’s cultural rather than genetic because it seems to be about where you are born. And there are loads of whites involved too. Unless the US is radically different to the UK, which I admit it might be, you won’t convince me it’s entirely cultural, never mind genetic. I don’t see why it would be different in the US. Has anyone actually done a proper genetic study? I bet it’s cultural at best which DOESN’T EXPLAIN THE STENTENCING THING. Mind you I also disagree with the above calling the system MASSIVELY racist. That is completely implausible to me. I can get with the system have massively racist results, for the reasons I outlined, but that is a completely different thing. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/7 "2012-09-06T00:58:25Z")
I don’t think that there’s any reason why you could reject Option A as insane. The fact that it exists is insane, no doubt. But look at the history of this country. Even recent history. It took an act of congress in 1964 to provide civil rights? 1964? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/8 "2012-09-06T01:13:35Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > There is an annoying and retarded gangster type “black culture” (for want of a better way of putting it) in the UK. But it basically applies to a fairly small minority of black people and it’s quite clear that it’s cultural rather than genetic because it seems to be about where you are born. And there are loads of whites involved too. > > Unless the US is radically different to the UK, which I admit it might be, you won’t convince me it’s entirely cultural, never mind genetic… While there are plenty of poor white people and a non-trivial number of well-off black people in the US, I do see a “black culture” that is more pronounced in inner city neighborhoods and is associated with speaking AAVE/Ebonics, living off welfare, begging, and crime, and buying gaudy status symbols like gold necklaces and those ghetto wheels/rims. I also see a lot not to like in rap/hip hop music, though I must confess likely bias here since I listen to “white” heavy metal music that includes violent content. I do know a number of black people that don’t fit the stereotype. A good friend of mine is a black preacher who does have some “ghetto” in his family history but he is well educated, speaks Standard American English very well, and wouldn’t dream of holding up a convenience store to steal fifty bucks. One thing I do perceive is that poor black people tend to be found primarily in inner city areas, while poor whites tend to be more rural. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/9 "2012-09-06T01:19:51Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > I don’t think you get this really peculiar more {ethnic minority}-than {ethnic majority} thing going on in most countries. You think wrong. Ethnic minorities (blacks, hispanics, aboriginals, whatever) are over-represented in prison populations all over. The incarceration rate of blacks is even worse in the UK than in the US: [More black people jailed in England and Wales proportionally than in US | Prisons and probation | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/oct/11/black-prison-population-increase-england) and the incarceration rates of aboriginals in Canada is sky high. Racism and poverty are not isolated to the US, although their exploding prison population increases the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/10 "2012-09-06T01:23:13Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I don’t think that there’s any reason why you could reject Option A as insane. > The fact that it exists is insane, no doubt. But look at the history of this country. Even recent history. It took an act of congress in 1964 to provide civil rights? 1964? The head of the nail has been hit. You can’t possibly expect hundreds of years of slavery, then segregation, then treatment as second class citizens to fix itself in a few decades. Give it a few more decades. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/11 "2012-09-06T01:59:51Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > The head of the nail has been hit. > > You can’t possibly expect hundreds of years of slavery, then segregation, then treatment as second class citizens to fix itself in a few decades. > > Give it a few more decades. Give what a few more decades? Run the statistics against family and personal wealth instead of race, and see what the number show. Then correct for the “guidelines” for prison time for different types of crime - white-collar, crimes against property, drug related crimes. Then correct for prison time served on plea-bargains versus aggressively defended cases. We have had coming on two centuries since slavery was legal; we have had half a century since the civil rights movement. When are people of power going to stop designing laws and implementing them so as to have a less deleterious effect on those who are wealthy and apparently primarily of northern European descent (i.e. “white”)? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/12 "2012-09-06T02:03:48Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Uh huh. A group of people overwhelmingly commit more crime, make less use of utterly free education, have much less stable home lives for children, abuse drugs and alcohol much more frequently, commit domestic violence much more frequently, have higher rates of problem gambling and so on and so forth. > > And the reason the group is incarcerated at higher rates is simply that the system is racist. Nothing at all to do with behaviour or personal choices. The people within the group bear no responsibility whatsoever and not a singe one of them needs to alter their behaviour. > > Nope, their predicament is entirely due to racism. :rolleyes: > > This sort of bullshit form lefties is itself a major cause of the problems experienced by Blacks. When people are told constantly that they are not, and can not be, responsible for their lives and actions, it is hardly surprising that they do not live their lives or act responsibly. Wow, I am honestly surprised by this post. I don’t often agree with you, but you don’t usually spout this kind of garbage. Study after study has shown that when you correct for socioeconomic status whites and blacks have similar rates of drug abuse, domestic violence, gambling, and above all the propensity to commit crime, but that arrest, prosecution, conviction, and incarceration rates are much higher for african americans than for whites. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/13 "2012-09-06T02:22:17Z")
> [@j666](#): > > When are people of power going to stop designing laws and implementing them so as to have a less deleterious effect on those who are wealthy and apparently primarily of northern European descent (i.e. “white”)? That was entirely my point. White class rule is still percolating through the justice system. And so, give it a few more decades. In what way did you misconstrue my comments? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/14 "2012-09-06T02:26:33Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > That was entirely my point. White class rule is still percolating through the justice system. And so, give it a few more decades. In what way did you misconstrue my comments? Brace yourself; it’s pretty ugly. As “Give the Darkies a few more years to get their act together.” Sorry. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/15 "2012-09-06T02:36:59Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Brace yourself; it’s pretty ugly. > > As “Give the Darkies a few more years to get their act together.” > > Sorry. Really. Huh? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/16 "2012-09-06T02:49:08Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Huh? 😕 Just … focus on the “Sorry”, okay? I didn’t pay attention to who was posting. Mea maxima culpa. (I’ve been reading **newcomer** & **moonshot925** in the DNC Convention Thread; obviously it has effected my interpretations.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/17 "2012-09-06T03:57:22Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Uh huh. A group of people overwhelmingly commit more crime, make less use of utterly free education, have much less stable home lives for children, abuse drugs and alcohol much more frequently, commit domestic violence much more frequently, have higher rates of problem gambling and so on and so forth. > > And the reason the group is incarcerated at higher rates is simply that the system is racist. Nothing at all to do with behaviour or personal choices. The people within the group bear no responsibility whatsoever and not a singe one of them needs to alter their behaviour. > > Nope, their predicament is entirely due to racism. :rolleyes: > > This sort of bullshit form lefties is itself a major cause of the problems experienced by Blacks. When people are told constantly that they are not, and can not be, responsible for their lives and actions, it is hardly surprising that they do not live their lives or act responsibly. Do you suppose it has something to do with the Y chromosome? Because if you are impressed by the overrepresentation of blacks in the criminal justice system, wait till you contemplate the fact that men vastly outnumber women in our criminal class. What do you reckon is genetically or culturally wrong with men? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/18 "2012-09-06T03:59:19Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Study after study has shown that when you correct for socioeconomic status whites and blacks have similar rates of drug abuse, domestic violence, gambling, and above all the propensity to commit crime… Gee. It’s almost like there is a link between poverty and a lack of education, childhood neglect and drug abuse. Amazing that nobody noticed such a connection before. Simple question, do you believe that there is not one single thing that 51% poor Blacks can do, as individuals, to improve their lot in life? That they are condemned to a life of poverty because the system will not let them get out of poverty? That even if they did get an education, got a good job, moved to a better neighbourhood, even if they did give up avoid drugs and crime, they would still be just as likely to be incarcerated? Because if that isn’t what you are saying, you aren’t disagreeing with my post in any way at all. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/19 "2012-09-06T04:07:33Z")
I suppose it would be insane to suppose that both racism and culture are both factors in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809/20 "2012-09-06T04:12:33Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Do you suppose it has something to do with the Y chromosome? Because if you are impressed by the overrepresentation of blacks in the criminal justice system, wait till you contemplate the fact that men vastly outnumber women in our criminal class. > > What do you reckon is genetically or culturally wrong with men? While I sympathise with you’re argument, I don’t think it’s particularly useful. For starters, men and women are useful biological terms whereas “blacks” and “whites” aren’t. Moreover, “men and women” are differently in ways that “blacks and whites” simply aren’t. Males and females have different body parts and different chemical balances as well as countless other genetic and biological differences which, to varying extents, do affect their behavior in ways that “blacks and whites”(which are cultural not biological terms) don’t have. I’ve never heard any respectable scientist produce any credible evidence suggesting there were significant behavioral differences between “black” children and “white” children no more than a few years old, while I think numerous pediatricians have documented behavioral differences between young boys and young girls. Obviously, I’m not saying all behavioral differences between males and females are a result of biology, but I think suggesting that men are more likely to commit violent crimes due to biology than women is considerably more defensible than the racist idiots claiming that “blacks” are more violent than “whites” due to “genetics” or “biology.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-crime-in-america/633809.md?page=2)