# Blacks and the GOP **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057 "2010-06-13T22:53:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/201 "2010-06-16T22:42:01Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I have not studied the statistics about how much crime is caused by illegal aliens, so I won’t speak to that, but as for why there are minority members who are against illegal immigration or agree with Arizona’s laws, or whatever, is because they played by the rules to become citizens or resident aliens, or what-have-you, and they don’t appreciate others sneaking in here breaking the law in order to live here. You mean the 3 million folks who got their citizenship through amnesty in the 1980’s? Or do you mean the millions more that got their citizenship because they were family members of citizens that got their citizenship through the amnesty in the 1980’s? What percentage of the hispanic population in Arizona do you think would qualify as immigration hawks? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/202 "2010-06-16T22:44:19Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > **Magiver** Last one, now again assuming for the purposes of this post only, again taking it as a given that the dog whistle happened. That post was one of 125 post made to this thread at the time. Now again assume there was just one ad like it for every election, how many such ads do you think I would have heard in since 1986 (the first year I voted). > > Now go back and re-read my first two posts to you. I ask you again, are you trying to win a debate, or are you trying to understand? Wait, I posted post 125, I don’t remember blowing a dog whistle. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/203 "2010-06-16T23:00:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait, I posted post 125, I don’t remember blowing a dog whistle. Damn it! I’ve been previewing like crazy to catch spelling and coding errors and totally missed that one. First I meant to write whatever the current post number was at the time of posting which I think was somewhere around 165. (in other words it should have been read as 1/165) At the time I thought it important not to ID the particular post to which I was referring as I was more curious on how **Magiver** would react to it rather than it’s actual content. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/204 "2010-06-16T23:17:15Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Damn it! I’ve been previewing like crazy to catch spelling and coding errors and totally missed that one. First I meant to write whatever the current post number was at the time of posting which I think was somewhere around 165. (in other words it should have been read as 1/165) At the time I thought it important not to ID the particular post to which I was referring as I was more curious on how **Magiver** would react to it rather than it’s actual content. Huh? I thought was confused by your previous post. Now more so. I think you’re being too cute by half. Now you’re saying you wanted **Magiver’s** reaction to a post while intentionally not indicating which post? I don’t care that much, really. But just thought I’d let you know that I’ve been unable to follow you, dog whistle and all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/205 "2010-06-16T23:19:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I totally agree but that doesn’t make those accusations untrue. Its a bit like having an argument with a fat person and then saying" Oh yeah, well you’re fat" when you can’t figure out what else to say. Its not a legitimate form of debate but its not untrue either. No. Well, maybe a teensy-weensy bit. Being fat has no bearing on the veracity or clear-headedness of ones debate position. Being a racist does. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/206 "2010-06-16T23:22:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean the 3 million folks who got their citizenship through amnesty in the 1980’s? Or do you mean the millions more that got their citizenship because they were family members of citizens that got their citizenship through the amnesty in the 1980’s? What percentage of the hispanic population in Arizona do you think would qualify as immigration hawks? Hey, going back to the 80s and ignoring all of the legal immigrants who have come here since then. And what do you mean by “immigration hawks”? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/207 "2010-06-16T23:55:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? I thought was confused by your previous post. Now more so. I think you’re being too cute by half. Now you’re saying you wanted **Magiver’s** reaction to a post while intentionally not indicating which post? > > I don’t care that much, really. But just thought I’d let you know that I’ve been unable to follow you, dog whistle and all. Yeah you kinda got me confused as well. Why not let the cat out of the bag? ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/208 "2010-06-16T23:58:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Huh? I thought was confused by your previous post. Now more so. I think you’re being too cute by half. Now you’re saying you wanted **Magiver’s** reaction to a post while intentionally not indicating which post? > > I don’t care that much, really. But just thought I’d let you know that I’ve been unable to follow you, dog whistle and all. It doesn’t matter anyway. But as an exercise for the reader: I was more curious if Magiver was honest in his desire to know why blacks don’t GOP, or was he here to win a debate on whether we can prove whether some republicans have engaged in racist behavior (like blowing dog whistles) that encourages racists to feel at home in the GOP . As I was previewing, I noticed a post where a poster clearly engaged in what I would call a dog whistle. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only poster who knows which poster and what post. The ID of the poster and content of the post was unimportant to me, I was merely curious on whether Magiver would even acknowledge it occurred. Now that last thing was of very important as it is an element of the larger point I was making. That is why in a subsequent post I turned it into a thought experiment. Now a moment about the larger point I was making. Every post to Magiver has been about one thing. You do your position a huge disservice when you fail to acknowledge that the republicans campaign in a manner that comes off as racists, or appealing to racists elements. Since I’m sure yet one more person will insist that I’m being vague or cute somehow, here is a visual aid: Now for this experiment Imagine I’m Brian and Magiver is Kevin. Magiver, this is how I (and speaking on behalf of othr black people I know) perceive your [argument](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-k0k_jExhs) Now is everyone clear? Christ I hate you pedantic mofos sometimes ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/209 "2010-06-17T00:06:22Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > Hey, going back to the 80s and ignoring all of the legal immigrants who have come here since then. And what do you mean by “immigration hawks”? We let in about 175,000 legal immigrants from mexico every year, many of them are coming here on family visas. How much you want to bet that at least half the 175,000 Mexican immigrants got into this country because of someone who was granted amnesty in the 1980’s? My point is that it is hypocritical to criticize illegal immigration when so much of your community came here through illegal immigration, of course if you are talking about the Mexicans that don’t really hang out with Mexicans and attend Republican rallies then I guess you are correct but what percentage of Mexicans do you think that covers? I mean someone who feels about illegal immigration the way the Arizona state legislature Republicans seem to feel about illegal immigration. The ones that you claim agree with these stupid laws they have (or want to have) in Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/210 "2010-06-17T00:10:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No. Well, maybe a teensy-weensy bit. Being fat has no bearing on the veracity or clear-headedness of ones debate position. Being a racist does. Hrmm, good point. But it still doesn’t make it untrue. And as an aside, I know a few very clearheaded racists, they were raised as racists and rather than reject the racism of their parents, they held onto their traditions and even figured out ways to reconcile their racism with modern society (books like the bell curve really helped them out). ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/211 "2010-06-17T01:51:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **Magiver** : I have an older friend who works as a school nurse in a poor district. One of the questions often asked by young girls is how to get family aid money. This is not something that happened in the past tense, it continues to this day. I’m a little puzzled by your point here. Since your older friend works in a district that is still poor, wouldn’t she expect the young girls to have the same need for information on how to get family aid money? The poverty has not gone away. Usually the students know to go to the Guidance Office for this information. But often hospitals have an office for providing info in getting assistance, so perhaps it is normal to expect the medical personnel to be informed. School is a very common way for students to get information. I don’t know if Aid to Dependent Children is still available. I have been out of the system for a long time. Teachers often just cut through the red tape and provide little things that are needed like a book bag or a coat. But family aid is something else. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/212 "2010-06-17T03:11:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We let in about 175,000 legal immigrants from mexico every year, many of them are coming here on family visas. How much you want to bet that at least half the 175,000 Mexican immigrants got into this country because of someone who was granted amnesty in the 1980’s? I’m a poor guesser. > [@](#): > > My point is that it is hypocritical to criticize illegal immigration when so much of your community came here through illegal immigration That’s not hypocritical at all. Hypocritical is an illegal immigrant against other illegal immigrants. > [@](#): > > , of course if you are talking about the Mexicans that don’t really hang out with Mexicans and attend Republican rallies then I guess you are correct but what percentage of Mexicans do you think that covers? > > I mean someone who feels about illegal immigration the way the Arizona state legislature Republicans seem to feel about illegal immigration. The ones that you claim agree with these stupid laws they have (or want to have) in Arizona. Again, bad at guessing. Let me ask you something. I’m assuming that like some others on the board, you classify anti-illegal immigration into three main categories [ol] [li]Racist whites and no whites.[/li][li]Hypocritical whites and non whites.[/li][li]Racist and hypocritical whites and non whites.[/li][/ol] Is that a correct assumption? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/213 "2010-06-17T15:12:26Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I’m a poor guesser. But, you do concede that most of todays legal immigrants coming to the states today are coming by virtue of the fact that someone was once an illegal immigrant in the 1980’s. > [@](#): > > That’s not hypocritical at all. Hypocritical is an illegal immigrant against other illegal immigrants. Well I don’t know what you call it when you want to shut the door of opprtunity behind you. The reason I brought up Asians and affirmative action is that there once was a time when Asians made up miniscule percentages of top schools and then affirmative action gave them the opening they needed and now they are overrepresented in top schools. Now affirmative action works against them as they have to do BETTER than their white counterparts in order to get into good schools. So now that they have their foot in the door they want to stop affirmative action despite the fact that we continue to see progress in minority enrollment for other minorities. What do you call that? Maybe hypocrisy is not the right word. > [@](#): > > Let me ask you something. I’m assuming that like some others on the board, you classify anti-illegal immigration into three main categories > [ol] > [li]Racist whites and no whites.[/li][li]Hypocritical whites and non whites.[/li][li]Racist and hypocritical whites and non whites.[/li][/ol] > Is that a correct assumption? No, I an anti-illegal immigration and I try not to be racist (or white for that matter). We simply cannot absorb everyone that wants to come to this country but I think there is certainly an element of racism in a lot of the anti-immigrant sentiment you see these days. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/214 "2010-06-17T18:20:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But, you do concede that most of todays legal immigrants coming to the states today are coming by virtue of the fact that someone was once an illegal immigrant in the 1980’s. I don’t know, but 20 some odd years is a long time and I’m leaning more towards more legal immigrants coming here that have nothing to do with the 80’s amnesty. Please keep in mind too that I’m talking all legal immigration, not just South American immigration. > [@](#): > > Well I don’t know what you call it when you want to shut the door of opprtunity behind you. The reason I brought up Asians and affirmative action is that there once was a time when Asians made up miniscule percentages of top schools and then affirmative action gave them the opening they needed and now they are overrepresented in top schools. Now affirmative action works against them as they have to do BETTER than their white counterparts in order to get into good schools. So now that they have their foot in the door they want to stop affirmative action despite the fact that we continue to see progress in minority enrollment for other minorities. What do you call that? Maybe hypocrisy is not the right word. From what you have described if it is working against them, then of course they’ll be against it. If it’s helping them and they’re against it then I’d see it as hypocrisy. If it’s working against them and they’re against it then I see it as looking out for their own self interest. > [@](#): > > No, I an anti-illegal immigration and I try not to be racist (or white for that matter). We simply cannot absorb everyone that wants to come to this country but I think there is certainly an element of racism in a lot of the anti-immigrant sentiment you see these days. Of course there are racists among the anti-immigration movement. I just don’t think it’s the majority of us. Maybe I’m naive but that’s my belief. ETA: I shouldn’t have said movement, because I’m not part of any movement. Substitute sentiment instead. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/215 "2010-06-17T18:34:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I don’t know if Aid to Dependent Children is still available. I have been out of the system for a long time. Technically, [AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) is now TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families),](http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/abbrev/afdc-tanf.htm) as of the 1996 welfare reform bill. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/216 "2010-06-17T19:39:40Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I don’t know, but 20 some odd years is a long time So not even conceding that huh? > [@](#): > > From what you have described if it is working against them, then of course they’ll be against it. If it’s helping them and they’re against it then I’d see it as hypocrisy. If it’s working against them and they’re against it then I see it as looking out for their own self interest. Being against it when it is helping them is not hypocrisy, that is… something else. What do you call it when you take adtavantage of Affirmative Action and then cry about how unfair it is when it stops working in your favor? > [@](#): > > Of course there are racists among the anti-immigration movement. I just don’t think it’s the majority of us. Yeah but they’re the ones that seem to be getting all the airtime and sterring the wheel when you propose racist (IMO) laws like they are proposing in Arizona and a lot of folks seem to be OK with it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/217 "2010-06-17T20:10:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Technically, [AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) is now TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families),](http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/abbrev/afdc-tanf.htm) as of the 1996 welfare reform bill. And as of a few months ago, food stamps are no longer food stamps, but SNAP (Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program). Which makes some sense since they haven’t actually been food _stamps_ for years. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/218 "2010-06-18T01:33:56Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And as of a few months ago, food stamps are no longer food stamps, but SNAP (Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program). Which makes some sense since they haven’t actually been food _stamps_ for years. I still remember when they went from actual stamps to debit cards, some folks thought that it was a bad idea because it removed the stigma. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/219 "2010-06-18T02:32:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I still remember when they went from actual stamps to debit cards, some folks thought that it was a bad idea because it removed the stigma. :smack: Some folks would be happy if the poor, especially the brown ones, only ate dogfood. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/220 "2010-06-18T05:35:32Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > Some folks would be happy if the poor, especially the brown ones, only ate dogfood. :rolleyes: What’s wrong with cat food? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057.md?page=12)