# Blacks and the GOP **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057 "2010-06-13T22:53:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/61 "2010-06-14T17:02:47Z")
The Democrat party is the party of urban america. The majority of black people live in cities. Thus the majority of black people vote Democrat. The Irish and Italians used to be as solidly Democrat as black people. Ethnic solidarity in voting is a relic of the machine era in politics. In a machine the number of votes given to the machine candidate would reflect the number of jobs and money sent to the district. Thus if a person voted against a machine candidate it was like voting for money to be sent to another ethnic group whose members were more loyal to the machine. As groups moved out of the cities they became less loyal to the democrat party and less loyal to their ethnic groups. Ethnic solidarity is still strong amoung black people so identity politics is concurrently strong. Most white people don’t vote their identities as white people or as an ethnic group but another identity. Politics is not about policy, it is about group identification and status. The weakness of the policy arguements made above should show you that the political divide between blacks and the GOP is not about policy. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/62 "2010-06-14T17:02:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **Dio** , back away from that crack pipe. If you listen to Folsom Prison Blues it’s about remorse for what he did, which is why “…I hang my head and cry”. You could not be more wrong. He’s crying because when he hears the train whistle it reminds him he is not free. How’s this for remorse? > [@](#): > > I bet there’s rich folks eating in a fancy dining car > They’re probably drinkin’ coffee and smoking big cigars. > Well I know I had it coming, I know I can’t be free > But those people keep a movin’ > And that’s what tortures me… What’s torturing him is that is that he’s not free and other people are. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/63 "2010-06-14T18:06:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Mythical?” I don’t have any cites, but I seem to recall reading that several attempts were made to get the Reagan administration to cough up a real life example of his welfare queen and they never were able to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/64 "2010-06-14T19:15:13Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I don’t have any cites, but I seem to recall reading that several attempts were made to get the Reagan administration to cough up a real life example of his welfare queen and they never were able to do so. Generational transfer of social dependency on government programs. Are you suggesting that poverty doesn’t cycle from parent to child? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/65 "2010-06-14T19:19:08Z")
Are you suggesting that there is evidence of the “welfare queen” Reagan described actually existing? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/66 "2010-06-14T19:24:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you suggesting that there is evidence of the “welfare queen” Reagan described actually existing? It was Linda Taylor. From the Wikipedia page on “Welfare Queen” (Foornotes deleted) > [@](#): > > The term “welfare queen” is most often associated with Ronald Reagan who brought the idea to a national audience. During his 1976 presidential campaign, Reagan would tell the story of a woman from Chicago’s South Side who was arrested for welfare fraud: > > ``` > "She has eighty names, thirty addresses, twelve Social Security cards and is collecting veteran's benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. And she is collecting Social Security on her cards. She's got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names. Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000." > > ``` > > Since Reagan never named a particular woman, the description can be viewed as an example of dramatic hyperbole. Despite claims that the woman never existed, the story seems to have been drawn from newspaper reports at the time. In 1976, the New York Times reported that a woman from Chicago, Linda Taylor, was charged with using four aliases and of cheating the government out of $8,000. She appeared again in the newspaper while the Illinois Attorney General continued investigating her case. The woman was ultimately found guilty of “welfare fraud and perjury” in the Circuit Court of Cook County, Illinois. In addition, the Associated Press reported on March 8, 1977 that “Joel Edelman, executive director of the Illinois Legislative Advisory Committee on Public Aid, has said his committee found that from early 1973 until mid-1974, [the woman] ‘used 14 aliases to obtain $150,000 for medical assistance, cash assistance and bonus cash food stamps.’ Edelman said, ‘She went from district to district. She had a collection of wigs and was a master of disguise. She organized people and upwards of 100 aliases were used.’” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/67 "2010-06-14T19:25:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Generational transfer of social dependency on government programs. Are you suggesting that poverty doesn’t cycle from parent to child? What is that supposed to mean? As a matter of broad policy, the existence of a small number of fraud cases signifies little but the need to crack down on fraud. But that wasn’t Reagan’s intent. He was using it to create the impression that social programs as a whole were nothing more than a tool for an entire disfavored social subsegment to take advantage of the hard-working, law-abiding regular taxpayer (read, “white”). It was nothing more than a form of race baiting. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/68 "2010-06-14T19:33:51Z")
Reagan was using the most extreme example he could find, still exaggerating and making shit up even then (Reagan was notorious for inventing facts and statistics out of whole cloth, but the media rarely called him on it. He even said he personally helped liberate death camps in WW2 once – just an outright, wild ass fabrication without even a kernel of truth. Imagine if Obama tried some shit like that), and, most significantly, in my opinion, tried to portray her as _typical_. Not as an insanely anomalous example, but as the norm. It became generalized in the rhetoric of the time (I was there in the deep south and I heard plenty of it), that all women on welfare were “welfare queens” living high on the hog. And they were always stereotyped as black, of course. Reagan invented a mythical creature to pander towards racial resentments. No such things ever actually existed in reality. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/69 "2010-06-14T19:57:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It was Linda Taylor. From the Wikipedia page on “Welfare Queen” (Foornotes deleted) Oh, I know. But how can that case (which it took a good deal of digging to find, never mind that Reagan’s version was so exaggerated as to be a simple lie) be presented as evidence of a systematic breakdown without a far more brazen dishonesty than Reagan’s? Yet we see it repeated even here, even today. Incredible. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/70 "2010-06-14T20:01:51Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > What is that supposed to mean? As a matter of broad policy, the existence of a small number of fraud cases signifies little but the need to crack down on fraud. But that wasn’t Reagan’s intent. He was using it to create the impression that social programs as a whole were nothing more than a tool for an entire disfavored social subsegment to take advantage of the hard-working, law-abiding regular taxpayer (read, “white”). It was nothing more than a form of race baiting. If you want to read “white” then you’re a racist jackass for saying it. There is nothing mythical about generational welfare and there is nothing racially linked to the phenomena. It was and continues to be a way of life passed down by example or lack of parental guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/71 "2010-06-14T20:13:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you want to read “white” then you’re a racist jackass for saying it. There is nothing mythical about generational welfare and there is nothing racially linked to the phenomena. The creation of society-wide outrage over the matter to raise it to the level of a presidential campaign is 100 percent racial. It would take a willful act of self-deception not to understand all the racially coded language. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/72 "2010-06-14T20:18:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you want to read “white” then you’re a racist jackass for saying it. There is nothing mythical about generational welfare and there is nothing racially linked to the phenomena. No, sorry, you’re wrong. I well remember the sentiments of white southern culture at the time. I lived in it. I heard it from relatives. It was absolutely an unquestioned meme that women on welfare were black and were living luxurious lives finanaced by “white people’s money.” “Generational welfare” is a different phenomenon than the mythical “welfare queen” (women living in such circumstances are not living as “queens”). Your dismissive, morally haughty comment about welfare being passed down by “example” and “lack of parental guidance” is exactly why black people won’t give Republicans the time of day, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/73 "2010-06-14T20:19:32Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The creation of society-wide outrage over the matter is 100 percent racial. It would take a willful act of self-deception not to understand all the racially coded language. You are accusing Reagan and/or the GOP of being racist and that is a complete load. Given the number of white people on welfare the logic of using “code” to garner votes would be political suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/74 "2010-06-14T20:21:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Your dismissive, morally haughty comment about welfare being passed down by “example” and “lack of parental guidance” is exactly why black people won’t give Republicans the time of day, by the way. Really, you want to explain that one. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/75 "2010-06-14T20:25:51Z")
Everyone is advised to dial it back. Argue the issues and the facts, but let’s leave out the speculations about a poster’s personality, motives or state of mind. > [@Magiver](#): > > If you want to read “white” then you’re a racist jackass for saying it. Name-calling goes in the Pit, not Great Debates. This is a formal warning; please avoid insults in this forum in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/76 "2010-06-14T20:27:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You are accusing Reagan and/or the GOP of being racist and that is a complete load. Given the number of white people on welfare the logic of using “code” to garner votes would be political suicide. Whether or not GOP politicians are personally racist (and I tend to think that most of them are NOT), is not relevant. They _use_ racism and pander to it for personal gain. I think it’s probably completely cynical in most cases. Also, white people on welfare are not exactly the GOP’s target demographic. I don’t think they’re losing too many votes there, and I can also tell you that there is a cognitive dissonance among some poor white people that causes them to be critical of black people for the exact same things they do themselves. They always have excuses or justifications for thmselves. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/77 "2010-06-14T20:29:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really, you want to explain that one. As I said upthread, it’s because of the conservative tendency to regard social and economic problems in black communities as being caused by their own moral failings. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/78 "2010-06-14T20:38:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Oh, I know. But how can that case (which it took a good deal of digging to find, never mind that Reagan’s version was so exaggerated as to be a simple lie) be presented as evidence of a systematic breakdown without a far more brazen dishonesty than Reagan’s? > > Yet we see it repeated even here, even today. Incredible. Well, I don’t think Reagan’s version was that much exaggerated over the Legislative Advisory Committee report. Compare Reagan’s “Twelve social security cards . . .Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000.” to Edelman’s “[the woman] 'used 14 aliases to obtain $150,000 for medical assistance, cash assistance and bonus cash food stamps.” and Reagan’s “She has eighty names” to Edelman’s “She organized people and upwards of 100 aliases were used” \Reagan was clearly opposed to welfare programs, and he used an example of an abuse of the system as a way to argue that the program itself should be gotten rid of. That tactic isn’t particularly uncommon. Look at what’s happening right now, for instance. People are using the BP gulf disaster as an argument that we shouldn’t drill in the Gulf. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/79 "2010-06-14T20:38:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > As I said upthread, it’s because of the conservative tendency to regard social and economic problems in black communities as being caused by their own moral failings. The failings exist and have nothing to do with race. whether you feel it is a moral failing of parents who are neglegent in their child rearing duties is your call. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057/80 "2010-06-14T20:55:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Everyone is advised to dial it back. Argue the issues and the facts, but let’s leave out the speculations about a poster’s personality, motives or state of mind. > Name-calling goes in the Pit, not Great Debates. This is a formal warning; please avoid insults in this forum in the future. My apologies for criticizing the person and not the statement but my position stands that it’s nonsense to paint the Republican party with a racist broad brush. I’m fine with the buck stopping with me and I would prefer a more civil tone but the buck started one post above me. [moderator castigation mode off] And to be specific, my apologies to acsenray. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-and-the-gop/543057.md?page=5)