# "Blacks are poor tippers"... racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739 "2006-10-08T20:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/41 "2006-10-09T01:51:35Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] No, **they** don’t. It was _one_ definition that you want to hand pick and ignore all others when coming to a concensus on what “racism” entails. [/quote] And you hand pick the ones that support what you think racism entails. You still haven’t explained why you get to do that, and I don’t. > [@](#): > > I’d need more information. But what are you trying to prove? That stereotyping is the same as racism? That you can’t have one without the other? You need more information to decide if “blacks are inferior to whites” is racist? > [@](#): > > Or are you just trying to continue being unnecessarily arguementative? Well, jeez, excuse the heck out of me for being argumentative in **Great Debates**. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/42 "2006-10-09T01:58:00Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] And you hand pick the ones that support what you think racism entails. You still haven’t explained why you get to do that, and I don’t. [/quote] I didn’t pick. I used them all to come to an overall concensus; you used one. [QUOTE=Miller] You need more information to decide if “blacks are inferior to whites” is racist? [/quote] You didn’t give me one example; you gave me three. I asked you what point you’re trying to make. [QUOTE=Miller] Well, jeez, excuse the heck out of me for being argumentative in **Great Debates**. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] And I qualified that statement with “unnecessarily”. :rolleyes: You didn’t respond to post #35. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/43 "2006-10-09T02:27:20Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] I didn’t pick. I used them all to come to an overall concensus; you used one. [/quote] You used all the ones that supported the argument you wanted to make, and ignored the ones that undercut it. > [@](#): > > You didn’t give me one example; you gave me three. I asked you what point you’re trying to make. The point I was trying to make is that stereotypes can be racist. Sometimes they are not, but often they are. > [@](#): > > And I qualified that statement with “unnecessarily”. :rolleyes: Sorry, why don’t you tell me how much I’m allowed to disagree with you, so that I won’t offend in the future. > [@](#): > > You didn’t respond to post #35. No, yes, and maybe. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/44 "2006-10-09T02:42:10Z")
How about answering post #35 a little more formally and going a little further in depth than no, yes, and maybe? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/45 "2006-10-09T04:32:24Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] Since it seems this debate is mostly based on semantics, let’s go to the dictionary: \*\*rac‧ism  –noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. _Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006._ [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=x-ray vision in a previous thread] This of course with my experiences living in NJ and ten years in the service, that blacks are lazier, less motivated, and more likely to talk “street” in the workplace. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > rac·ism (rszm) > n. > > 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. > 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. > _American Heritage Dictionary_ [QUOTE=x-ray vision in a previous thread] If I could only speak with two applicants and one was William and one was Darnell, and all other things being equal, I would choose William. In my experiences most Darnells are black and most blacks I’ve encountered are lazy in the workplace. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > racist > > adj > 1: based on racial intolerance; “racist remarks” > 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist] > \*\* [QUOTE=x-ray vision in a previous thread] But from what I’ve seen in all the years I’ve been alive (and like I’ve said, many, many other people who I’ve talked to) is that blacks on the whole are lazier and less motivated than whites. [/QUOTE] For some odd reason, I hear a quacking sound in the distance. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/46 "2006-10-09T04:36:19Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] I think you’re wrong to assume that just because a black person is making assumptions about another black person, then he can’t be making a racist assumption. Membership in a race doesn’t make one immune from the type of mental pitfalls that members outside of the race are vunerable to. It’s usually called self-hatred, when it’s in its most extreme forms. [/QUOTE] Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/47 "2006-10-09T04:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] How about answering post #35 a little more formally and going a little further in depth than no, yes, and maybe? [/QUOTE] At this point, it doesn’t seem worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/48 "2006-10-09T09:39:43Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] If I were a soccer coach and I had to draft a player, and the only information I had was that Player A is from Brazil and Player B is from the United States, would I be racist for choosing Player A? [/QUOTE] Before you do anything you need to fire your scout team. > [@](#): > > What if you have a choice between waiting on a table of blacks or whites?. > > If you know that “blacks as a group tend to tip more poorly than other races”, are you racist for picking the white table and playing the odds? First you would have to get a job in the imaginary restaurant where the waiters pick the tables. But, granting your premise, and based solely on your behavior in this thread, I would say “not racist,” because you would actually be doing the black table a favor by not waiting on them. Let someone with professional pride, and a willingness to assume the best about people until proven otherwise, be their server. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/49 "2006-10-09T10:45:33Z")
Lenny Bruce used to do a bit where he would ask the audience a question, presumably directed at the men. Suppose, he would ask, that you had a chance to marry one of two women. Both are about the same age, wonderful entertainers, lovely singers, and financially well off. One is white, and the other is black. Who would you pick?" After a bit of a pause to give the men a chance to reflect he would add, "Oh. I forgot to tell you. The white woman is [Kate Smith.](http://www.speedboatclassics.com/images/kate_smith_STILL.jpg) The black woman is [Lena Horne.](http://www.apoloybaco.com/lenahorne.jpg) Here is a scenario I invented. Suppose it is late at night and I am downtown walking to my car. Four or five Black youths, dressed out in full hip-hop regalia, stop me and demand my money. Not being an idiot, I comply. Let’s say it happens several times that month. The next time I see four or five hip-hoppy Black kids approach me at night, am I a racist if I assume ill will on their part? Here’s the kicker Same scenario, except the terminal incident involves four or five **White** kids all hip-hopped out. Same approach, same appearance. I beat feet. Racist? Prudent? Chickenshit? In my opinion, the lesson here is to avoid that street late at night, because bad shit can happen. To pick someone’s race and make judgements about that person is just plain stupid. There is a whole lot more going on than just skin color. No offense to any races other than mine, but your race is about the least interesting thing about you. I prefer to deal with people on an individual basis. What difference does it make if you’re black when you are helping me jump start my car? What difference does it make if you are black and blasting party music at 2AM? In the first case, you’re a cool guy. In the second case, you’re a jerk. It’s sort of how I feel about someone who is gay. Not really an interesting piece of information. Hey, if you ain’t fucking me, I couldn’t give a shit who you’re fucking. I rember when a gay women moved into a house next door to a buddy of mine. She is, too me, very attractive. Athletic, cyclist, loves dogs, likes the same sports teams I do, great cook. I asked him about her, in a sort of “I’d like to ask her out” kind of way. He looked at me and said, “She’s a lesbian. It’s a damned shame.” I looked at him and said “Hey dumbass. Who cares? A, you got no shot even if she were straight because B, you’re married!” She is now one of my closest friends, still hot as a pistol, but the idea of making it with her is mighty squicky. Her ex-girfriend, though … Ya gots ta take people as they are. Ignore the superficial shit. Get down to the nittty gritty. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/50 "2006-10-09T11:11:01Z")
It has nothing to do with being black, but I do think it’s a cultural thing (I got shitty tips from Europeans back in the day…because tipping isn’t the custom there, I presume). Obviously, we don’t have information on every single black person who ever dined in a restaurant, but I can tell you that my son regularly got stiffed or shittily tipped by most blacks he waited on, and most waitpeople I’ve talked to say the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/51 "2006-10-09T12:30:06Z")
Anecdote: While I was in college and for a while after, I managed a very popular nightclub. Somehow, for some reason, Saturday night turned all black. It was quite a phenomenon. Our bartenders and waitstaff were more mature than your average staff, inpart because they could work 2 or 3 nights a week and take home $1500. They knew they had to be professional so they could keep this dream job. **WARNING- THE FOLLOWING COULD BE CONSTRUED AS RACIST, BUT IS ACTUALLY JUST A STATEMENT OF FACT!** When Saturday night turned black, the bar and waitstaff were walking out of there with less than $100 in tips. And they busted their ass serving top shelf drinks all night. So we imposed a $15 cover charge, which was split between the staff to incent them to work Saturdays. I love all people and spend time with whites, black and hisoanics frequently. I worship and eat with them all. I love them all. But, in my experience, as much as it pains me to make blanket statements, blacks \*\*_tend_ \*\* to be poor tippers. I don’t know why. And I can’t dance. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/52 "2006-10-09T13:51:18Z")
I feel this is a stereotype, but a largely accurate one. I know many many many black people and almost all of them have totally different views of tipping than me. On average, most I know feel a tip of couple of dollars is standard for average service, regardless of the amount of bill. No tip at all is standard for poor service and to merit a good tip would involve getting free food or drinks. ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/53 "2006-10-09T15:27:33Z")
My ex has been a server on and off for years and he has complained that blacks and young people are the generally the worst tippers. That doesn’t mean he gives them any worse service, just means his expectations are that much lower at tip time. Does that make him racist against teenagers? If it is reality than it is not racist, it is playing the odds that experience has established. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/54 "2006-10-09T15:36:51Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] At this point, it doesn’t seem worth the effort. [/QUOTE] You mean at the point that you contradicted yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/55 "2006-10-09T15:52:29Z")
this isn’t the same thing as “whites are smarter than blacks” where blacks would have a problem with this statement and would be total disagreement with it. The blacks I know who are poor tippers will readily admit that they don’t tip 15-20% and will tell you why. So if there is a stereotype, and the stereotyped group admits it is true, how is this bad? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/56 "2006-10-09T17:04:47Z")
This is very similar to an IMHO thread I started in 2004: [Waiters & waitresses: are blacks cheap tippers?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=260465) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/57 "2006-10-09T17:07:58Z")
As I stated in the 2004 thread (link posted above), I delivered pizzas for 3 years while a student at the University of Cincinnati in the late 1980’s. As you might expect, customers consisted of folks from many different backgrounds & ethnicities (white, black, Indian, Asian, etc.) Due to our close proximity to a neighborhood called _Avondale_, I would estimate 30% of our clientele were black. Most customers tipped between 0.50 and $1.00. Even “poor” college students usually tipped. During the three years I worked there, I _never once_ received a tip from a black customer. Not even a penny. I know this sounds like I’m lying, but I swear I am not. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/58 "2006-10-09T17:24:49Z")
I don’t quite get why people are saying that if it’s true it can’t be racism. Suppose some further crazy research is done and it is somehow absolutely incontrivertibly proven that (to pick a less incendiary example) asians are genetically a few percentile points smarter than whites. Does that mean that some xenophobic asian guy who has viewed his race as superior for years, and has been labelled racist that would time, is suddenly no longer racist? I think, and this is a subtle point that I haven’t worked out for myself very well, that there’s a difference between observing something, and actually believing/promulgating that observation. Someone who delivers pizzas and, just because he’s observant, observes that black people generally tip worse, is hard to call racist. Someone who observes that and jokes about it with his friends is acting a tad racist. Somenoe who observers it and goes on Maury Povich to rant out it is more racist still; even though all those people observed the same thing, which might even be true. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/59 "2006-10-09T17:29:23Z")
It is personal statistical analysis. He can say in my environment I have noticed the blacks I deal with are bad tippers. If he says that proves all blacks are bad tippers ,he oversteps. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/60 "2006-10-09T17:46:49Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] I don’t quite get why people are saying that if it’s true it can’t be racism. Suppose some further crazy research is done and it is somehow absolutely incontrivertibly proven that (to pick a less incendiary example) asians are genetically a few percentile points smarter than whites. Does that mean that some xenophobic asian guy who has viewed his race as superior for years, and has been labelled racist that would time, is suddenly no longer racist? [/QUOTE] You are conflating “smarter” with “superior overall.” If one person is smarter than another, at most he is superior in one aspect, and only under the definition of superior as “higher on a scale.” Same goes for one race vs. another race. What if whites were better poets? Lawmakers? Diplomats? Warriors? Although I find the concept of race to be physiologically invalid, I suppose that given the definitions of race we use today, some races are, as a rule, better at some things than others. Most definitions of racism, however, require a **belief** that a particular race is simply better than another **overall**. I doubt the craziest of research could prove that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739.md?page=4)