# "Blacks are poor tippers"... racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739 "2006-10-08T20:10:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/101 "2013-05-31T20:55:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > My fault, I actually quoted the wrong person. However, what you are saying now is backing up my point. It can’t be. The question was what was the evidence of bias in that original post, not do you consider my more recent post evidence of bias. > [@](#): > > But not anywhere near 100% of the time, no? In fact, you would never even how often you don’t know. And you think this means what? > [@](#): > > First, having worked in the food service industry, I can tell you that it is not a given one will start to notice a trend that x person a good tipper unless they are regulars and/or their tips are skewed greatly in one direction. Which is exactly what is being discussed. A persobn who works with the public can notice a trend, from regulars and non regulars oever a period of time. Nobody is claiming it’s scientfic evidence. > [@](#): > > Second, you have no idea who is Canadian or not. Nonsense. Again, nobody is claiming to know every Canadian that comes in but if you’re in a area that gets a lot of Canadian customers you can tell by accent, CC or ID, when doing business. Let’s say you identify 50 out of 100 Canadian customers, {which I see as conservative for any reasonably intelligent experienced server} If out of those 50 2/3 to 3/4 tip poorly do you expect the other 50 to drastically alter those stats? > [@](#): > > Third, by chalking up their theoretical bad tipping to nationality, you are not attributing to other things race or socioeconomic status. By assuming causation instead of correlation, you can arrive at the wrong conclusion. Once again, nobody is making a scientific claim or assuming causation so this seems to be a waste of time. > [@](#): > > Bullshit. All you could rightfully say is that in your limited experience, the people you have waiting who are assumed or known to be Canadian have given me bad tips. Which is pretty weak sauce IMO. Why the assumption that it’s limited experience? There are people who make very good livings being professional servers and know what good service is. Take this person for example > **[Yahoo Search - Web Search](https://search.yahoo.com/)** > > The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web. > [@](#): > > This concept is not particularly hard to grasp. It’s why nearly all sports use advanced metrics now instead of just scouting “observations”. It’s notoriously hard to correctly parse large amounts of data on the fly. Some surveys I have seen estimate blacks tip 5% less on average. Do you think if I showed you videos of 25 black baseball players batting, 150 White baseball players batting, and 30 or so other ethnicities batting, do you believe you could honestly tell me your assumptions about how well they each hit as a cohort (on average) would be even close to accurate? Within 5% that is? Completely irrelevant. I’m not responding to claims I never made. > [@](#): > > Of course people are saying being a poor tipper is associated with race. You just said the same wrt nationality. Incorrect. Nobody is saying being black or Canadian is the cause. There’s a difference between "I’ve noticed Canadians tend be bad tippers, and , They are bad tippers because they are Canadian. > [@](#): > > Eh, clearly that happens, but most professionals will try to avoid doing that regardless of what sort of tip they might get. That said, you just said: Sure which is exactly what that professional said in the link when asking why Canadians tend to tip poorly. He’s a professional in an upscale resturant. > [@](#): > > “When a customer sits down and you recognize thier accent or they say they are visiting from Quebec, **you know the chances are higher that they will be lousy tippers.** ” > [@](#): > > You don’t KNOW that. Even putting aside the truth of that statement, if you take into account human nature per your understanding, why do you think groups that are assumed to tip less will get similar service? When did I say I assumed that? I didn’t. You appear to be reading things into my posts that aren’t there and then replying to what you imagined. Please refrain. > [@](#): > > Rather as you hand waved away with a non answer about accents and being able to always correctly identify Canadians and middle easterners. well for one thing i NEVER said or even implied I or anyone could always identify Canadians or people from the Middle East. I’ll thank you not to mirepresent my posts. I asked you a specific question relating to my post because you made a statement I objected to. You have yet to answer. Your response was so general it was a non answer. Saying bias can exist, and sometimes does influence us, is not a specific answer. > [@](#): > > Certainly they have and will continue to make them. Your assumption that is cultural is understandable, but you have given no evidence that it’s “black culture” or “Canadian” instead of perhaps “Ethiopian-American culture” or “québécois culture” or “the culture of poverty”. Thus when a person working with a small set of incomplete data attributes causation to x, assumes a known Canadian is gonna give a bad tip, or thinks Black people tip poorly because of some cultural reason, they are making rash assumptions that usually lead to bad conclusions. I never claimed to know and don’t need to know. It’s irrelevant. Look if you don’t believe African Americans and Canadians tend to tip less, then feel free to offer any evidence you have. Insisting it’s not a scientific observation is responding to an argument nobody made. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/102 "2013-06-01T12:11:16Z")
Since this started as a semantic question, here is a semantic answer: I think it’s a _racist_ attitude if he thinks _blackness_ has anything to do with _race_ For myself, I think that _race_ is not a biologically useful concept for humans, and that defining _race_ by skin _color_ is just meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/103 "2013-06-02T20:37:46Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It can’t be. The question was what was the evidence of bias in that original post, not do you consider my more recent post evidence of bias. As I said before, I misinterpreted your quote. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > And you think this means what? If you are gonna claim there is a correlation between being Canadian and not tipping, you need to be pretty damn sure when someone is Canadian. Otherwise, you would have no idea how often the two actually correlate. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Which is exactly what is being discussed. A persobn who works with the public can notice a trend, from regulars and non regulars oever a period of time. Yes, but the certainty that such a trend is not person and place specific, and that is it is a factual statement, comes from a rigorous examination of the evidence, not “noticing a trend”. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Let’s say you identify 50 out of 100 Canadian customers, {which I see as conservative for any reasonably intelligent experienced server} If out of those 50 2/3 to 3/4 tip poorly do you expect the other 50 to drastically alter those stats? One has no idea of knowing. This is what you keep missing. There are millions of Canadians who will interact with service people some multiple of that number. Noticing a trend with 50 of them means absolutely nothing, and it is certainly not enough to state with any certainty that Canadians are more likely to tip poorly. It’s also made infinately more difficult because the person making the judgement is in a bad position to judge as their behavior can unknowingly affect the outcome. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Once again, nobody is making a scientific claim or assuming causation so this seems to be a waste of time. Of course you are assuming causation; at least as it’s generally defined when speaking of sociological issues. If one didn’t think the poor tipping was “caused” by Black, then nobody would be positing explanations that the tipping is because of Black culture. More importantly, no one would assume a Black individual they have never met or interacted with would be a poor tipper if they didn’t assume Blackness and poor tipping we sufficiently related as to make the assumption valid. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Why the assumption that it’s limited experience? The same reason anecdotes are not data. One person’s experience is rarely enough to draw any conclusions about a broad group or context. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Completely irrelevant. I’m not responding to claims I never made. Way to duck the question. Your whole argument rest upon someone having the ability to do such things. If you think the average server can crunch numbers like that based solely on causal observations then I don’t know what to say. It’s very easy to think you can, but this is why people are generally pretty bad at accurately and precisely measuring such things without careful analysis. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > There’s a difference between > > "I’ve noticed Canadians tend be bad tippers, and , They are bad tippers because they are Canadian. Functionally, there is no difference. People who say this are not attempting to be precise with technical language. They are speaking in generalities. Clearly, no biological fact is gonna literally cause you to perform some behavior in a specific way like tipping below average. Parsing it that way is just being deliberately obtuse. The real test is, if two otherwise identical people where at a restaurant, would the race or nationality of the person lead one to assume something about their tipping preferences? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sure which is exactly what that professional said in the link when asking why Canadians tend to tip poorly. He’s a professional in an upscale resturant. Are you really trying to use yahoo answers for a cite? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > When did I say I assumed that? I didn’t. I didn’t say you did, I was asking you a quesiton, hence the question mark. Once again, do you think groups assumed to be poor tippers and everyone else get similar service? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > well for one thing i NEVER said or even implied I or anyone could always identify Canadians or people from the Middle East. I’ll thank you not to mirepresent my posts. I was giving you credit where I suppose I shouldn’t have then. If you can’t reliably identify a group you claim, solely from observations, has a proclivity to do a specific thing, then why are you so confident in your conclusion? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > I asked you a specific question relating to my post because you made a statement I objected to. You have yet to answer. Your response was so general it was a non answer. I answered you already. I mistakenly referenced your first post, which upon re-reading was fine. It’s when you later made a definitely statement that Canadians are likely to be poorer tippers which I objected to. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Saying bias can exist, and sometimes does influence us, is not a specific answer. No, it’s not. This is a situation where bias is inherent. It’s like asking students whether they were accurately graded by their teachers. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Look if you don’t believe African Americans and Canadians tend to tip less, then feel free to offer any evidence you have. Once again you are conflating several issues and just generally not understanding basic concepts here. It can, and has been observed in limited survey settings that Black people tip less than White people on average. What has not been accurately addressed is whether such a tip is “poor”, what is at the roots of this observation, and whether the correlation has been properly observed/demarcated. Additionally, what I have taken issue with is your position that servers and other service people are particularly accurate or unbiased in their observations, and whether those observations should mean much in relation to the above questions. You, for some odd reason, cannot understand that most humans are terrible at accurately measuring minor differences like that, and tend to be biased in ways that would serve to confirm stereotypes even if they are not true. This is really not that complicated. Many people can’t even calculate tips in their head. Do you really think the average server is able to wade through large sets of data, while doing their job, with any accuracy you can rely on? I worked at a restaurant that tallied all sorts of tip data (obviously not by race), and I can tell you that the number of people who (after a busy shift) could accurately tell you how many tables they had, how many people they served, what their sales were, and what tip percentage they got were few and far between. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/104 "2013-06-03T12:07:32Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > As I said before, I misinterpreted your quote. > > If you are gonna claim there is a correlation between being Canadian and not tipping, you need to be pretty damn sure when someone is Canadian. Otherwise, you would have no idea how often the two actually correlate. > > Yes, but the certainty that such a trend is not person and place specific, and that is it is a factual statement, comes from a rigorous examination of the evidence, not “noticing a trend”. > > One has no idea of knowing. This is what you keep missing. There are millions of Canadians who will interact with service people some multiple of that number. Noticing a trend with 50 of them means absolutely nothing, and it is certainly not enough to state with any certainty that Canadians are more likely to tip poorly. It’s also made infinately more difficult because the person making the judgement is in a bad position to judge as their behavior can unknowingly affect the outcome. > > Of course you are assuming causation; at least as it’s generally defined when speaking of sociological issues. If one didn’t think the poor tipping was “caused” by Black, then nobody would be positing explanations that the tipping is because of Black culture. More importantly, no one would assume a Black individual they have never met or interacted with would be a poor tipper if they didn’t assume Blackness and poor tipping we sufficiently related as to make the assumption valid. > > The same reason anecdotes are not data. One person’s experience is rarely enough to draw any conclusions about a broad group or context. > > Way to duck the question. Your whole argument rest upon someone having the ability to do such things. If you think the average server can crunch numbers like that based solely on causal observations then I don’t know what to say. It’s very easy to think you can, but this is why people are generally pretty bad at accurately and precisely measuring such things without careful analysis. > > Functionally, there is no difference. People who say this are not attempting to be precise with technical language. They are speaking in generalities. Clearly, no biological fact is gonna literally cause you to perform some behavior in a specific way like tipping below average. Parsing it that way is just being deliberately obtuse. > > The real test is, if two otherwise identical people where at a restaurant, would the race or nationality of the person lead one to assume something about their tipping preferences? > > Are you really trying to use yahoo answers for a cite? > > I didn’t say you did, I was asking you a quesiton, hence the question mark. Once again, do you think groups assumed to be poor tippers and everyone else get similar service? > > I was giving you credit where I suppose I shouldn’t have then. If you can’t reliably identify a group you claim, solely from observations, has a proclivity to do a specific thing, then why are you so confident in your conclusion? > > I answered you already. I mistakenly referenced your first post, which upon re-reading was fine. It’s when you later made a definitely statement that Canadians are likely to be poorer tippers which I objected to. > > No, it’s not. This is a situation where bias is inherent. It’s like asking students whether they were accurately graded by their teachers. > > Once again you are conflating several issues and just generally not understanding basic concepts here. It can, and has been observed in limited survey settings that Black people tip less than White people on average. What has not been accurately addressed is whether such a tip is “poor”, what is at the roots of this observation, and whether the correlation has been properly observed/demarcated. > > Additionally, what I have taken issue with is your position that servers and other service people are particularly accurate or unbiased in their observations, and whether those observations should mean much in relation to the above questions. You, for some odd reason, cannot understand that most humans are terrible at accurately measuring minor differences like that, and tend to be biased in ways that would serve to confirm stereotypes even if they are not true. This is really not that complicated. > > Many people can’t even calculate tips in their head. Do you really think the average server is able to wade through large sets of data, while doing their job, with any accuracy you can rely on? I worked at a restaurant that tallied all sorts of tip data (obviously not by race), and I can tell you that the number of people who (after a busy shift) could accurately tell you how many tables they had, how many people they served, what their sales were, and what tip percentage they got were few and far between. These posts are just a long windedf way of repeating your point that anecdoatal evidnce is not accurate in any scientific way. I’ve already acknowledged that more than once. It’s a waste of time to keep repeating it. Then, after decrying annecdotal evidence, you offer your own on what servers are capapble of. Funny. The point of the Yahoo link was to show a professional intelligent server in a high end resturant noticing the same thing I mentioned. Then we have the survey offered by another poster. So, IMO, experienced intelligent servers may not be scientific but they can and do notice tippping patterns among their customers. If you don’t agree fine, but that’s your opinion and you’ve done nothing to back it up with any data. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/105 "2013-06-03T12:23:44Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The point of the Yahoo link was to show a professional intelligent server in a high end resturant noticing the same thing I mentioned. Then we have the survey offered by another poster. So, IMO, experienced intelligent servers may not be scientific but they can and do notice tippping patterns among their customers. If you don’t agree fine, but that’s your opinion and you’ve done nothing to back it up with any data. That is all. And a lot of people notice Asians are poor drivers and that Jews are cheap. How much validity we give to such opinions is based on the rigor with which they were arrived at, not that a bunch of people casually noticed something. Otherwise we could quote people all day noticing trends (read: stereotypes). ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/106 "2013-06-03T23:03:41Z")
No, it could be just one person’s clear and distinct observation. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/107 "2013-06-04T04:55:57Z")
Yeah it’s a little racist according to one of the definitions posted above but what can you do? Participating in society without judging someone by appearance is impossible. Are you supposed to greet every person you see as some novel organism without making assumptions about his or her needs, wants, motives, and trustworthiness? As long as your mindful of your primitive characterizations and try to prevent them from making you hateful of others, you’ll be ok. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/108 "2013-06-07T18:23:57Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Stereotyping isn’t the same as having a racist attitude, especially given the definitions above. If I find out my new co-worker that I haven’t met yet is German, and I’m glad because I think that means that he’ll have a good work ethic, that’s not a racist attitude. It is racist when you hear he is black and assume he will have a poor work ethic. Very often stereotyping is indeed racist. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/109 "2013-06-07T18:28:37Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > And a lot of people notice Asians are poor drivers and that Jews are cheap. How much validity we give to such opinions is based on the rigor with which they were arrived at, not that a bunch of people casually noticed something. Otherwise we could quote people all day noticing trends (read: stereotypes). Often we make the person fit the sterotype. For example if one is cheap and not Jewish, that PERSON is cheap, if that person is Jewish, then the entire religion is cheap. As you can see by my screen name, I teach about prejudice ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739/110 "2013-06-07T18:29:54Z")
Stereotyping isn’t always bad. I told my daughter never to take candy from a stranger , and if she got lost go to an older woman or a mom with a child, not to a man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-are-poor-tippers-racism/375739.md?page=5)