# Blacks commit more crimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876 "2015-08-25T19:57:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/1 "2015-08-25T19:57:50Z")
I hope this doesn’t offend anybody > **[Black-on-White and White-on-Black Crime: A Disqus Dialogue](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/03/27/1373678/-Black-on-White-and-White-on-Black-Crime-A-Disqus-Dialogue)** > > I had an interesting debate with a fellow on Disqus concerning inter-ethnic homicide rates. OK, it's not one that looks particularly interesting at first glance, because he's pitching the tired ... > [@](#): > > 2013 > White murderer, white victim: 2,509 > White murderer, black victim: 189 > Ratio: 13.3 : 1 > > Black murderer, white victim: 409 > Black murderer, black victim: 2,245 > Ratio: 1 : 5.5 > > 2012 > White murderer, white victim: 2,614 > White murderer, black victim: 193 > Ratio: 13.5 : 1 > > Black murderer, white victim: 431 > Black murderer, black victim: 2,412 > Ratio: 1 : 5.6 > > I won’t belabor the point by going farther back, as the pattern is already obvious: Americans of any color are significantly more likely to kill someone of their own color than of a different one. No doubt because that’s whom they encounter most often in everyday life. (Segregation and whatnot.) > > But when they do cross paths, at what rate should we expect them to kill each other? Remember, there are 4.8 white Americans for every black American. If their propensity toward homicide is equal, we’ll expect them to have an equal likelihood of killing any person they happen to meet. For every 100 people a person meets, if he’s traveling among the whole population and not just within his neighborhood, 13 will be black, and 63 will be white. The national homicide rate in 2013, per the FBI, was about 2 per 100,000 (rounding off the population to 300 million). Let’s imagine that five white murderers (not 4.8, for the obvious reason) and one black murderer were responsible for all of those, and that each of them murdered two people out of every 100,000 he met. > > One white murderer, in 10 million encounters, will meet 1.3 million black people and will kill 26 of them. Together, our five murderers will kill 130. Let’s correct our rounding from a moment ago and make that 125. > > One black murderer, in 10 million encounters, will meet 6.3 million white people. At the same rate of 2 per 100,000 as the white murderers, he’ll kill 126 of them. That’s the exact same homicide propensity as the white murderers’, yet he commits 4.8 times the number of cross-ethnic murders as any one white murderer – because he has 4.8 times the number of opportunities. The white murderers encounter black people less often, and are simply dividing the labor among one another, while accomplishing the same amount of carnage. A problem is that whites and Latinos get rolled together, so how badly would this skew results? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/2 "2015-08-25T20:16:46Z")
**ryu238** , this forum is for commenting on [these articles](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/archive). Your options now:[ol][li]If you are asking a question try [re-posting here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=3).[/li][li]If you are starting a debate [re-post here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=7).[/li][li]If you’re looking for a fight [post here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=5).[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/3 "2015-08-25T20:25:00Z")
Moved to Great Debates from Comments. Colibri Comments Moderator ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/4 "2015-08-25T20:32:08Z")
Do those whitey numbers include Wall Street bankers who cheated the entire society, GWB’s associates who managed the same through Goldman Sacks’ outrageous decision to bail out shareholders and not mortgage holders, or those who made $billions through the misery of an illegal war in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/5 "2015-08-25T20:38:40Z")
While there is some good evidence that black people commit a disproportionate (to the population) amount of crime, there is also good evidence that police arrest and prosecutors convict a disproportionate (to the criminals) number of black people for all crimes. It’s pretty hard to untangle the two. And, indeed, there’s no reason to believe they are independent from each other. Racially disparate policing is almost certainly a contributing factor to crime rates–among many other mechanisms, by imprisoning lots of parents. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/6 "2015-08-25T20:39:27Z")
Well yes, they do. For a lot of reasons which we can discuss. More blacks live in poverty which tends to drive crime regardless of race. Drugs are illegal which creates a massive black market (no pun intended) which drives violent crime. Lots of other reasons too but my opinion is that the two above are the prime drivers for crime (regardless of race) in America. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/7 "2015-08-25T20:55:33Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > **ryu238** , this forum is for commenting on [these articles](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/archive). Your options now:[ol][li]If you are asking a question try [re-posting here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=3).[/li][li]If you are starting a debate [re-post here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=7).[/li][li]If you’re looking for a fight [post here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=5).[/li][/ol] Sorry…I am very new here. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/8 "2015-08-25T20:59:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > While there is some good evidence that black people commit a disproportionate (to the population) amount of crime, there is also good evidence that police arrest and prosecutors convict a disproportionate (to the criminals) number of black people for all crimes. It’s pretty hard to untangle the two. And, indeed, there’s no reason to believe they are independent from each other. Racially disparate policing is almost certainly a contributing factor to crime rates–among many other mechanisms, by imprisoning lots of parents. This is interesting. However when to applied to somewhere like Ferguson, there seems to be no bias: [VDARE.com](http://www.vdare.com/articles/hands-up-dont-shoot-was-a-lie-data-shows-latest-doj-report-is-too) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/9 "2015-08-25T21:02:15Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > This is interesting. However when to applied to somewhere like Ferguson, there seems to be no bias: [VDARE.com](http://www.vdare.com/articles/hands-up-dont-shoot-was-a-lie-data-shows-latest-doj-report-is-too) You might want to consider reading sources other than white supremacists when trying to ascertain the truth about racism. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/10 "2015-08-25T21:05:49Z")
Adjusting for Hispanic Whites would likely reduce the number of murders committed by Whites and increase the magnitude of the interracial murder divide, since Hispanics have lower average incomes and a host of other poor environmental factors that are correlated with murder. I must say I like how you linked to Daily Kos and Virginia Dare as your sources. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/11 "2015-08-25T21:19:53Z")
I’m confused, should I have killed 13 people this year? If so I’m way behind. (I’m a whithe guy.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/12 "2015-08-25T21:29:05Z")
In this instance, I’m only vaguely offended by the misuse of statistics. The figures in the OP might suggest a correlation - they’re a long way from suggesting a causation. Also, if this is supposed to lead to some kind of genetics argument, the terms “black” and “white” will need to be clearly defined and some effort made to control for environmental factors like poverty. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/13 "2015-08-25T22:03:10Z")
I have no problems believing that statistically, blacks commit more crimes than whites. I have a problem if someone were to attribute such disparities to race rather than economic and social well-being. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/14 "2015-08-25T22:27:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You might want to consider reading sources other than white supremacists when trying to ascertain the truth about racism. Yeah, but if I donate $50 to that site, I can get two, (THAT’S TWO!!!) Confederate battle flags. So, there’s that! As for the OP, and giving you the benefit of the doubt, it seem that your thread has been moved to Great Debates. In this forum we debate great ideas. Did you have a great idea that you wanted to debate? If not, we can get a mod to move it a forum like IMHO or MPSIMS. There, you can just ask silly questions or post things that you want to share without having to defend them. In this forum, people are going to rip you apart if you want to defend an idea like “blacks are inherently more criminal than whites”. Don’t think that has not been “debated” here before. We get it about every 6 months or so. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/15 "2015-08-25T22:32:12Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I have no problems believing that statistically, blacks commit more crimes than whites. I have a problem if someone were to attribute such disparities to race rather than economic and social well-being. Just curious, how do crime rates compare between whites, Asians, Latinos, and blacks in the same economic range? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/16 "2015-08-25T22:32:50Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I have no problems believing that statistically, blacks commit more crimes than whites. I have a problem if someone were to attribute such disparities to race rather than economic and social well-being. Indeed. Heck, screw “race” and just call the cohorts “Subculture A” and “Subculture B”. If B has more poverty and fewer opportunities for advancement and faces discrimination both blatant and subtle at higher rates than A, then… sure, one could imagine more crimes being committed by members of B, though even that might be a tad suspect if law enforcement is disproportionately inclined to go after members of B and members of B are less likely to be able to afford quality legal counsel that could get charges against them reduced, dropped or dismissed. In any case, if the comparison between A and B is ever going to be about genetics, find a possible genetic marker _first_ that occurs in A but not B (or the reverse) and then study its possible effect. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/17 "2015-08-25T22:38:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Indeed. Heck, screw “race” and just call the cohorts “Subculture A” and “Subculture B”. If B has more poverty and fewer opportunities for advancement and faces discrimination both blatant and subtle at higher rates than A, then… sure, one could imagine more crimes being committed by members of B, though even that might be a tad suspect if law enforcement is disproportionately inclined to go after members of B and members of B are less likely to be able to afford quality legal counsel that could get charges against them reduced, dropped or dismissed. > > In any case, if the comparison between A and B is ever going to be about genetics, find a possible genetic marker _first_ that occurs in A but not B (or the reverse) and then study its possible effect. Why do these conversations so often lead back to “it’s not genetic”? I’m perfectly willing to accept that Subculture B’s crime rates are largely or entirely a result of culture, socio-economic status, and other factors. I guess I don’t understand this message board’s bristling about genetics when no one (that I’ve seen in this thread at least) has even suggested it was because of genetics. I don’t think proving it’s not genetic makes it “better” or really adds any meaning or value to the conversation. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/18 "2015-08-25T22:41:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Why do these conversations so often lead back to “it’s not genetic”? I’m perfectly willing to accept that Subculture B’s crime rates are largely or entirely a result of culture, socio-economic status, and other factors. I guess I don’t understand this message board’s bristling about genetics when no one (that I’ve seen in this thread at least) has even suggested it was because of genetics. I don’t think proving it’s not genetic makes it “better” or really adds any meaning or value to the conversation. What am I missing? Join Date Aug 2015, that’s why. Do you know how many race-baiters we get on this MB every year who come here to educumate us about how blacks are genetically inferior in some way? A lot. That’s how many. And when you get someone linking to racist cites to back up their ideas, well… you do the math. I asked the OP to clarify what this thread was about, giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he does so in a reasonable amount of time, then no harm and no foul. But right now, this thread is hanging out there with a bit of stench on it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/19 "2015-08-25T22:45:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Join Date Aug 2015, that’s why. Do you know how many race-baiters we get on this MB every year who come here to educumate us about how blacks are genetically inferior in some way? A lot. That’s how many. And when you get someone linking to racist cites to back up their ideas, well… you do the math. > > I asked the OP to clarify what this thread was about, giving him the benefit of the doubt. If he does so in a reasonable amount of time, then no harm and no foul. But right now, this thread is hanging out there with a bit of stench on it. Fair enough. I’m not around here enough to have a good feel for the historical suffering this board has had to face. I do agree that the OP doesn’t present a good argument. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876/20 "2015-08-25T22:46:00Z")
Because liberals and most ‘conservatives’ have accepted _a priori_ that all racial groups are absolutely equal in all ways and consequently genetics cannot possibly explain group behavior. And as such people go out of their way to desperately signal how stridently they reject genetics as a possible cause of human criminality. And, for what it’s worth, [genetic markers of crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A) have been found. And unsurprisingly, they occur more commonly in blacks than in Whites. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-commit-more-crimes/728876.md?page=2)