# blacks made the western world **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 26, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255 "2011-05-26T04:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Recliner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e57/32.png) [@Recliner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recliner)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/21 "2011-05-26T23:32:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The _Black_ Irish. They’re actually Spanish (in someone’s imagination). Wait, is it true that a lot of modern surnames come from the…uhh…Irish people rescuing drowning…members of the Spanish Armada? I heard this somewhere. I forget the specifics. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Recliner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e57/32.png) [@Recliner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recliner)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/22 "2011-05-26T23:50:50Z")
> [@FarmerChuck](#): > > god this argument makes me go insane… first off yes slaves did create alot of wealth for the already wealthy in the south… poor folk didnt get slaves and 500 acres of cotton rich folk had it to begin with. Also name me one cotton plantation in new england, pa, ny etc etc.. or west virginia who split from Va cuz they didnt like slaves.. also how did slaves help the country from 1860’s till now? thats right they didnt… america was still a joke until after world war 2 really… i mean we won our freedom just barely with the help of the french and agaisnt an empire that was far to spread out.. also.. we bascailly lost the war of 1812.. and im pretty sure slaves didnt fight the spanish american war either.. and i dont think we had regiments of slaves slamming the beaches of iwo jima, or normandy, and i dont think we had any slaves in the mock towns that we tested the atomic bomb on? and we didnt lock any slaves in the first gemini capsuls… I guess this amounts to a plug, but I’ve got no financial interest in it: > **[American Slavery, 1619-1877: Kolchin, Peter: 9780809015542: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/American-Slavery-1619-1877-Peter-Kolchin/dp/0809015544)** > > American Slavery, 1619-1877 \[Kolchin, Peter\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. American Slavery, 1619-1877 This book (“American Slavery: 1619-1877”, by Peter Kolchin) is the best book I’ve read thus far on (I’d say “the Peculiar Institution”, but that phrase is clever the first time and irritating afterwards) Slavery in America (and the Americas). Perhaps it was my “Wow, in college, you actually learn about unusual things!” response, but what I found fascinating about this book was that it looked at slavery in the American South (which smaller parts on how it related to slavery in other parts of the globe) from a largely economic perspective – which is to say, I felt that before I studied this, I had the same question as every modern person on my lips, namely, “How could people ever do this? What were they thinking?” Basically: they were thinking money. It (the aforementioned book) demonstrates how the South became an agrarian, slave-labor society – and how, putting aside the moral issues, this basically created an American South that was, in effect, a “slave economy”. Meanwhile, the North was industrializing, if only simply because it _had to_ (inferior agricultural land, which led to a long-term reduction in the cost-effectiveness of Northern slave-labor, and so on). One of the most striking facts that I recall from the book was that, during the height of the King Cotton years – the South was still so lacking in industrialization that they had to ship their raw cotton North (or across the pond), simply so that it could be turned from a raw material into what we’d now call a “value-added product”; the Southernors, by trapping themselves in a slave economy, had basically allowed the “real money” to be made elsewhere (textile mill areas: drive through parts of the upper northeast, and you’ll still see them; heck, consider the UK – Manchester was “Cottonopolis”). Anyway, not seeking to dump on any party, here, and that thesis is certainly arguable, but – let’s tie this back to the OP – did Blacks build the South? Damn right they did, but their “bosses” (ahem.) didn’t see how important industrialization was. Certainly, the South _could_ have industrialized – and an interesting question is whether Slave labor would have quickly become “unfree factory labor” a la Dickensian England, or Dickensian America, or probably Dickensian Anywhere – that’s another question. So, in summation: I don’t know. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/23 "2011-05-27T00:13:18Z")
> [@Recliner](#): > > Wait, is it true that a lot of modern surnames come from the…uhh…Irish people rescuing drowning…members of the Spanish Armada… Unlikely. [**THE BLACK IRISH**](http://www.ireland-information.com/articles/blackirish.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*\*…Another theory of the origin of the term ‘Black Irish’ is that these people were descendants of Spanish traders who settled in Ireland and even descendants of the few Spanish sailors who were washed up on the west coast of Ireland after the disaster that was the ‘Spanish Armada’ of 1588. It is claimed that the Spanish married into Irish society and created a new class of Irish who were immediately recognisable by their dark hair and complexion. There is little evidence to support this theory and it is unlikely that any significant number of Spanish soldiers would have survived long in the war-torn place that was sixteenth century Ireland. It is striking though how this tale is very similar to the ancient Irish legend of the Milesians who settled in Ireland having travelled from Spain. > > The theory that the ‘Black Irish’ are descendants of any small foreign group that integrated with the Irish and survived, is unlikely. It seems more likely that ‘Black Irish’ is a descriptive term rather than an inherited characteristic that has been applied to various categories of Irish people over the centuries…\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/24 "2011-05-27T01:05:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The _Black_ Irish. They’re actually Spanish (in someone’s imagination). I thought they were really the Picts? ---
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/25 "2011-05-27T03:49:35Z")
it boggles my mind to see how controversial this question is. Warning? Ill take a warning any day sir, Im not the right person to tell anyone how to do their “job”. this is a question that makes people think, hmm maybe just maybe the wasps don’t have all the answers ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/26 "2011-05-27T03:57:04Z")
There are only two ethnic groups in America. Blacks and WASPs. Oh, wait. There are also white scottish protestants, white german protestants, white french protestants, white anglo-saxon catholics, white irish catholics, white german catholics, white (off white) italian catholics. I could go on, but you get the drift. It’s irritating when people say “WASP” when they mean white. Unless you’re anglo-saxon and protestant and white, you’re not a WASP. WASPS are a small minority of white people in America. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/27 "2011-05-27T04:00:49Z")
No, actually, it makes people wonder when is the op going to post a debate. ---
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/28 "2011-05-27T04:02:44Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > There are only two ethnic groups in America. Blacks and WASPs. > > Oh, wait. There are also white scottish protestants, white german protestants, white french protestants, white anglo-saxon catholics, white irish catholics, white german catholics, white (off white) italian catholics. I could go on, but you get the drift. It’s irritating when people say “WASP” when they mean white. Unless you’re anglo-saxon and protestant and white, you’re not a WASP. WASPS are a small minority of white people in America. cute! I take it you are a white person, you have never seen the effects of structural racism Ill take it. If you are a black male in 2011 you see racism every single days. If you are being hassled every single day, you will steal a car sooner or later. Not my point, of course the slaves brought their culture to the us. Without the influence from Africa, Us would be nothing but anarchy. (nb. my theory) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/29 "2011-05-27T04:06:44Z")
Err… No. Easy evidence against your hypothesis: look at modern Africa. Notice how quite a lot of it is a festering shithole, despite the blacks being there. Now look at Japan. See how good it’s doing _without_ the blacks? Or England? Or Germany? Seriously, it’s a horribly misguided hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/30 "2011-05-27T04:15:06Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > it boggles my mind to see how controversial this question is. Warning? You misspelled “incoherent.” ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/31 "2011-05-27T04:22:38Z")
Can we just move this over to the pit so that we can use the personal insults that are _clearly_ necessary here? ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/32 "2011-05-27T04:32:03Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > it boggles my mind to see how controversial this question is. Warning? Ill take a warning any day sir, Im not the right person to tell anyone how to do their “job”. this is a question that makes people think, hmm maybe just maybe the wasps don’t have all the answers Glad to see you slept it off. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255/33 "2011-05-27T04:45:33Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > it boggles my mind to see how controversial this question is. Warning? Ill take a warning any day sir, Im not the right person to tell anyone how to do their “job”. this is a question that makes people think, hmm maybe just maybe the wasps don’t have all the answers The “question” is not so much controversial as silly. You were given the opportunity to defend it and chose to not bother even trying. This is a Warning not to pull this sort of joke again. Thread closed. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-made-the-western-world/583255.md?page=1)