# 'Blacks need to get their act together' vs 'AA social troubles are an American problem' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660 "2010-10-19T14:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/1 "2010-10-19T14:46:27Z")
I got this debate from a recent discussion on race from [bloggingheads.tv](http://bloggingheads.tv); here are the condensed arguments: [Glenn’s main argument](http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/31656?in=27:40&out=29:56) (~2min). [Amy’s argument](http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/31656?in=33:00&out=34:00); [Part 2](http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/31656?in=31:30&out=32:50) (~2min). [The full contextual discussion](http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/31656?in=27:40&out=36:50) (10min). Amy is arguing a position that holds AA as the main contributors to their own social problems. Earlier in the discussion she [compares AAs to a parable](http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/31656?in=04:40&out=05:40) that says although AAs were wronged in ways that effect them to this day, the only thing holding blacks back (right now) are themselves. Glenn seems to think that this is an incorrect way to look at the current social problems that effect AAs, as it doesn’t view them within the framework of the larger American society; this ‘lazy thinking’ would ignore any root (non-racial) social causes and limit any discussion/solution to just the ‘in-group’. While I do see much value in Amy’s points (there is no God-like outsider who can impose social order), I lean more towards Glenn’s position (I think that it is too simplistic to just limit the discussion/problems/solutions to within the in-group/race). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/2 "2010-10-19T15:45:45Z")
I think that’s pretty obvious. There are certainly issues within the black community which need to be addressed by the black community, not least of which is the belief that anyone who cares about education is “acting white”. However, it’s clear from the fact that the largely unrelated black communities of Europe are doing just as poorly that African-American culture is not all, or even most of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/3 "2010-10-19T18:54:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think that’s pretty obvious. There are certainly issues within the black community which need to be addressed by the black community, not least of which is the belief that anyone who cares about education is “acting white”. However, it’s clear from **the fact that the largely unrelated black communities of Europe are doing just as poorly** that African-American culture is not all, or even most of the problem. cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/4 "2010-10-19T19:03:46Z")
I don’t see how it’s possible to say that black people or “black culture” is the only thing holding blacks back without a necessary implication that there is something inherently, biologically wrong with them. In other words, saying “it’s just them” is an implicitly racist statement. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/5 "2010-10-19T19:12:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t see how it’s possible to say that black people or “black culture” is the only thing holding blacks back without a necessary implication that there is something inherently, biologically wrong with them. In other words, saying “it’s just them” is an implicitly racist statement. I don’t get it. How is saying that there is something amiss with the **culture** of group A necessarily imply that there is something inherently, biologically wrong with group A? I can easily see that the one could be a sort of acceptable “code word” for the other, but not that it necessarily implies the other. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/6 "2010-10-19T19:16:03Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > cite please. Here’s a spreadsheet breaking down UK GCSE scores by local school authority and race. If you scroll all the way down, you can see the percentage of students, by race, who scored at made at least 5 C-or-better grades on the GCSEs (competency exams administered to 15-16 year olds in the UK). Black students did 3% worse than whites and mixed-race students, and 6% worse than Asians (for the UK, Asian = South Asian, not Oriental). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/7 "2010-10-19T19:20:18Z")
It’s a little harder to find numbers for the rest of Europe, unfortunately - the French government does not collect data on race, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/8 "2010-10-19T19:25:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t get it. How is saying that there is something amiss with the **culture** of group A necessarily imply that there is something inherently, biologically wrong with group A? > > I can easily see that the one could be a sort of acceptable “code word” for the other, but not that it necessarily implies the other. What causes culture? Is it internal or external? If it’s external, it’ can’t be “just them,” if it’s internal, then what does that actually mean? culture is a dependant variable. Something has to cause it. Why is black culture (whatver that actually even means) the way it is? What makes black people create a self-defeating culture? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/9 "2010-10-19T19:32:13Z")
Both statements, and thousands of others, are in some sense true. Shit’s complicated. It isn’t actually very difficult or in any way contradictory to simultaneously hold in one’s head the fact that there’s a significant historical bias against black “success” and the idea that when people fuck up, ultimately, they are responsible for it. So, yeah, it’s a collective problem. And yeah, shitty behavior is shitty behavior; cut that out. Amy Wax’s thesis is that the _main_ problem holding blacks back is a self-contained behavioral problem, though, which I think goes way too far. How on earth would anybody even have a frame of reference from which to make that statement? Are there other Americas where, in a couple of decades after a mostly successful but also troubled civil rights movement, minorities are all CEOs of major corporations? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/10 "2010-10-19T19:36:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Here’s a spreadsheet breaking down UK GCSE scores by local school authority and race. If you scroll all the way down, you can see the percentage of students, by race, who scored at made at least 5 C-or-better grades on the GCSEs (competency exams administered to 15-16 year olds in the UK). Black students did 3% worse than whites and mixed-race students, and 6% worse than Asians (for the UK, Asian = South Asian, not Oriental). Isn’t the disparity much, much wider in the US though? (Hard to say exactly since we don’t have the same exams here, of course…) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/11 "2010-10-19T19:39:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What causes culture? Is it internal or external? If it’s external, it’ can’t be “just them,” if it’s internal, then what does that actually mean? culture is a dependant variable. Something has to cause it. Why is black culture (whatver that actually even means) the way it is? What makes black people create a self-defeating culture? One thing culture _isn’t_, is biologically determined. I’m not arguing the validity of the “Black culture = the problem” point, just the absurdity of claiming this argument is the same as being racist. Certainly, I can see an argument like ‘hundreds of years of slavery, racism and oppression in America have created a Black “underclass” culture which is deeply disfunctional, and which perpetuates itself even once the slavery, racism and oppression which created it has been mostly removed’. Dunno if that is a good argument or a bad one - I’m no scholar of Black cultural history - but one thing is sure, it isn’t obviosly _racist_. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/12 "2010-10-19T19:53:33Z")
I think its a bit myopic to say that “black culture” is the ONLY thing holding back AAs in this country. Its also silly to think that there isn’t more the AA community can do to imrpove its situation. For example, I find the poisonous lyrics in rap counterproductive. When did black guys stop calling each other brother and start canning each other niggah? Its as if women started calling each other kuntz. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/13 "2010-10-19T19:59:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Isn’t the disparity much, much wider in the US though? (Hard to say exactly since we don’t have the same exams here, of course…) Yes, but education in the UK is governed at the national level, not at the state level (since there aren’t any states). That means they don’t have the sort of huge geographic swings in school quality which we have here, which affect black students disproportionately (being more likely to go to school in the South or in inner cities). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/14 "2010-10-19T19:59:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Here’s a spreadsheet breaking down UK GCSE scores by local school authority and race. If you scroll all the way down, you can see the percentage of students, by race, who scored at made at least 5 C-or-better grades on the GCSEs (competency exams administered to 15-16 year olds in the UK). Black students did 3% worse than whites and mixed-race students, and 6% worse than Asians (for the UK, Asian = South Asian, not Oriental). Uh, I think you forgot to link to it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/15 "2010-10-19T20:16:36Z")
I’m sorry, but I think it’s pretty undeniably that both are factors. However, all cultures impact and inform one another. You cannot fix cultural pathologies without addressing the extent to which they’ve informed other cultures, and fixing those as well. More importantly, just saying it’s a Black problem is not a solution, it’s just a way for society to wash their hands of the issue. PS. That lady is really condescending and disingenuous. I’m pretty used to the whole, “I’m not a racist/bigot, but [insert something racist]”, but do we really need to give these people book deals and attention? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/16 "2010-10-19T20:31:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Uh, I think you forgot to link to it. 😉 Why… yes, yes I did. :smack: [Here it is](https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t590WJyalxzhDUXQn9DFogw#gid=0). ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/17 "2010-10-19T20:32:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why… yes, yes I did. :smack: [Here it is](https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=t590WJyalxzhDUXQn9DFogw#gid=0). And the conversation kept going! I felt like the Emperor had no clothes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/18 "2010-10-19T20:36:49Z")
I thought I told you to stop peeking through that window. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/19 "2010-10-19T21:09:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > One thing culture _isn’t_, is biologically determined. I disagree with this actually. Biology has a large degree of influence. Culture is a biologically evolved characteristic in the first place. Biology isn’t the only variable, but its a variable. The biological influences are universal to the species, though. they don’t vary by ethnicity or “race.” > [@](#): > > I’m not arguing the validity of the “Black culture = the problem” point, just the absurdity of claiming this argument is the same as being racist. > > Certainly, I can see an argument like ‘hundreds of years of slavery, racism and oppression in America have created a Black “underclass” culture which is deeply disfunctional, and which perpetuates itself even once the slavery, racism and oppression which created it has been mostly removed’. Dunno if that is a good argument or a bad one - I’m no scholar of Black cultural history - but one thing is sure, it isn’t obviosly _racist_. If that’s the case, then the causes are external, and the problem can’t be blamed on just them. That’s my point. The only way to say it’s only them (i.e. to deny any larger external variables) is to blame it on biology. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/20 "2010-10-19T21:13:25Z")
Pardon what might be a hijack but it seems relevant to me: is the “being a good student is acting white” meme real or just something that gets reported a lot? Anecdata only but I’ve known many black college students and they don’t seem to scorn intellectual pursuits any more than white students (some certainly do of course but so do many white students). College is a very different environment than high school of course, so I’m interested if black primary school students disdain academics more than white primary school students. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660.md?page=2)