# 'Blacks need to get their act together' vs 'AA social troubles are an American problem' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660 "2010-10-19T14:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/41 "2010-10-20T14:54:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nonsense. Aside from the fact that only homo sapients is capable as far as we know of what we think of as “culture”, there is no genetic basis whatsoever for culture. Thus blaming “culture” for problems cannot, logically, imply anything about the genetics of the persons involved. What I’m trying to say is that people who blame _only_ “black culture” (or say things like “black people are holding themselves back”) are using code for “blacks are genetically inferior.” Black culture (to the extent that such a thing even exists) does not exist in a vaccum and it cannot be neatly segregated from the macro culture. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/42 "2010-10-20T15:23:47Z")
In this day and age it is not fair to say that black peole are suppressed. It was true 50 years ago. And maybe there has not been enough time for the entire black cutlure to completely change. But if the culture must change, whos is responsible for that? Even if the culture was created, at least partially, by those other than blacks themsleves, aren’t black people still responsible for changing their own attitudes/habits/behavior/priorities. The problem is not biological. Thus, black people have the ability to change themselves if they want to, just like anyone else does. Just read a few of Bill Cosby’s speeches on the issue. He stresses that black people should stop worrying so much how they’re viewed by others and worry more about how they judge and treat themselves. The best way to overcome racial and social judgments is to do something about it (e.g. get an education, work hard) not to continue to blame others and wait for social justice to be handed out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/43 "2010-10-20T15:45:40Z")
What’s wrong with those black folks that they won’t get educations and work hard? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/44 "2010-10-20T16:20:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What I’m trying to say is that people who blame _only_ “black culture” (or say things like “black people are holding themselves back”) are using code for “blacks are genetically inferior.” Black culture (to the extent that such a thing even exists) does not exist in a vaccum and it cannot be neatly segregated from the macro culture. As I noted in my very first post on the matter: > [@](#): > > I can easily see that the one could be a sort of acceptable “code word” for the other, but not that it necessarily implies the other. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/45 "2010-10-20T17:14:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What’s wrong with those black folks that they won’t get educations and work hard? There a lot of things going on. According to Bill Cosby, one obstacle is language. Unfortunately, this obstacle will be difficult to overcome because the language techniques have been handed down from one generation to the next. > [@](#): > > They’re standing on the corner and they can’t speak English. I can’t even talk the way these people talk: ‘Why you ain’t,’ ‘Where you is’ … And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. … Everybody knows it’s important to speak English except these knuckleheads. … You can’t be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth! - Bill Cosby Another issue is prioritization. Cosby says many low income families are spending hundreds of dollars on sneakers while ignoring educational tools. Why is that happening? I don’t know, you’d have ask the people doing it. The point is, some people, and this isn’t even limited to black people, need to change their attitudes and behaviors to become more socially accepted and give themselves a chance to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/46 "2010-10-20T17:34:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What I’m trying to say is that people who blame _only_ “black culture” (or say things like “black people are holding themselves back”) are using code for “blacks are genetically inferior.” Unfortunately, this is gibberish. Culture is not set by genetics, and therefore it cannot be code for anything of the sort. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/47 "2010-10-20T17:37:22Z")
Life isn’t fair. You can talk all day about how all your society’s problems are someone else’s fault, and there’s a good chance that you’ll be 100% right,but it won’t change a thing. The people who wronged you will never make it right. That’s the unfair part: it may be their fault, but fixing it is your responsibility. The African American community’s problem’s are almost completely the fault of white America, but white America won’t solve them. Nobody will. As the hot dog seller said to the Buddhist monk, change comes from within. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/48 "2010-10-20T17:43:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, this is gibberish. Culture is not set by genetics, and therefore it cannot be code for anything of the sort. The accuracy of the first statement does not in any way prevent people from using it as code anyway. These are morons we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/49 "2010-10-20T18:50:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Life isn’t fair. You can talk all day about how all your society’s problems are someone else’s fault, and there’s a good chance that you’ll be 100% right,but it won’t change a thing. The people who wronged you will never make it right. That’s the unfair part: it may be their fault, but fixing it is your responsibility. > > **The African American community’s problem’s are almost completely the fault of white America** , but white America won’t solve them. Nobody will. As the hot dog seller said to the Buddhist monk, change comes from within. Bolding mine. I was with you until that part. Is that like saying terrorism is the result of Islam? I mean, white America is a pretty broad brush. You could also say Obama would never be president were it not for white America. So white American giveth and white America taketh away? I’ll grant you that some ignorant white Americans certainly played a huge role in forming black culture some time ago, but anymore you can’t blame white America. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/50 "2010-10-20T19:03:55Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > There a lot of things going on. According to Bill Cosby, one obstacle is language. Unfortunately, this obstacle will be difficult to overcome because the language techniques have been handed down from one generation to the next. > > - Bill Cosby > > Another issue is prioritization. Cosby says many low income families are spending hundreds of dollars on sneakers while ignoring educational tools. Why is that happening? I don’t know, you’d have ask the people doing it. > > The point is, some people, and this isn’t even limited to black people, need to change their attitudes and behaviors to become more socially accepted and give themselves a chance to succeed. Wow. Bill Cosby is really dumb. I never knew that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/51 "2010-10-20T19:10:43Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Pardon what might be a hijack but it seems relevant to me: is the “being a good student is acting white” meme real or just something that gets reported a lot? Anecdata only but I’ve known many black college students and they don’t seem to scorn intellectual pursuits any more than white students (some certainly do of course but so do many white students). College is a very different environment than high school of course, so I’m interested if black primary school students disdain academics more than white primary school students. My experience (which is decades old so things may be different now), the school environment diverges starting around middle school. I would be interested in data on traditionally black all girls schools and how their graduates do and traditionally black military schools (if they exist) and how their graduates do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/52 "2010-10-20T19:21:42Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > But if you were the smartest kid in school and acted ‘nerdy’ ‘geeky’ or ‘white’, you were put down. Its a very rare combination to be both socially adept and intellectually inquisitive at a young age. > [@](#): > > She has had some issues with kids in our culture because of her ways. Unlike me, she doesn’t ‘talk black’, she doesn’t use a lot of black slang (she uses tons of ‘internet’ slang, though) and she doesn’t have…soul, I guess. She is into stuff like anime and she wears glasses and is kind of awkward. I don’t know if this is any consolation but I was staying at a hotel where an anime convention was going on (people were dressed up as all sorts of things) and at least 10% of the kids there were black, and they were mostly girls. I’m just saying that anime seems to be at least ass popular among black girls as it is in the general population. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/53 "2010-10-20T20:58:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its a very rare combination to be both socially adept and intellectually inquisitive at a young age. No, it’s really not all that rare. There are plenty of smart people that were socially skilled as kids. Just as there are plenty of jocks who were bright and literate. Not everyone who wears coke bottle glasses is smart and not every kid who is popular is anti-intellectual. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/54 "2010-10-20T22:49:38Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Bolding mine. I was with you until that part. Is that like saying terrorism is the result of Islam? I mean, white America is a pretty broad brush. You could also say Obama would never be president were it not for white America. So white American giveth and white America taketh away? I’ll grant you that some ignorant white Americans certainly played a huge role in forming black culture some time ago, but anymore you can’t blame white America. By “white America”, I don’t neccessarily mean \*current \*white America. Most of the damage was done in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/55 "2010-10-20T23:30:17Z")
An interesting enigma to me as a southerner is that the black people I know on first name basis can almost to a person _perfectly_ mimic not just white dialect but a variety of white dialects: redneck, patronizing rich-bitch, “full of shit” white politician, and the slightly vaguely midwestern “CNN” voice (the U.S. equivalent of “received pronunciation”). Most are usually done with a bit of overemphasis for comedic effect, but you know exactly what type of person they’re imitating. The white people I know on first name basis can almost to a person _perfectly_ mimic not just black dialect but a variety of black dialects: histrionic pissed off older black woman, over enunciating black preacher, ghetto thug, patronizing old man and “full of shit” black politician. They rarely imitate the other race in front of them, but it’s something you just learn to do almost subconsciously, almost like another language and complete with syntax and pronunciation eccentricities. (In Alabama for example it’s common to hear uneducated blacks ask “what time it is?” and to occasionally drop the last consonant [what time i’ i’?] while uneducated whites tend to overenunciate random last consonants and stretch random vowels [“What ti-i-ime izzzzzz it?”].) Most also have a sort of diglossia: how people, regardless of race or social class, speak with their peer group is a lot different than how they speak in public. (I do this- I talk really fast when I’m around friends but slow it down and have marginally more accent when speaking in public because I’m accused of sounding snobby or English when I speak in my regular voice. Around gay friends my voice gets a tad nellier of course. Of course diglossia is not unique to any region but pretty much universal. It’s proof, at least to me, that dialect is largely if not exclusively a matter of choice and cultural identity. Whether all are created equally is I suppose a separate debate. ---
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/56 "2010-10-20T23:41:27Z")
clearly it comes down to culture. Cultures are different for whatever reason. You dont need to involve genetics. Compare Jews and Gypsies as an example of two rather distinct cultures, both have a long dark history of prosecution. Now cultures adapt to situations and also evolve from them. When it comes to academia, the jewish culture arm their sons and daughters better for scholarly success when compared to Gypsy dito. I do not have a cite for this but I am willing to take a guess. This can be transferred to any group/class/culture.So what is the controversy? cultures are different. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/57 "2010-10-21T01:55:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The accuracy of the first statement does not in any way prevent people from using it as code anyway. Considering that the only person using this code here is _you_, perhaps you should stop trying to derail the thread? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/58 "2010-10-21T04:56:31Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > clearly it comes down to culture. Cultures are different for whatever reason. You dont need to involve genetics. Compare Jews and Gypsies as an example of two rather distinct cultures, both have a long dark history of prosecution. Now cultures adapt to situations and also evolve from them. > > When it comes to academia, the jewish culture arm their sons and daughters better for scholarly success when compared to Gypsy dito. > > This can be transferred to any group/class/culture.So what is the controversy? cultures are different. Yes, and different cultures can lead to some traits & genes getting passed on more than others. The Ashkenazi Jewish example you provide is an example of this. > [@](#): > > Ashkenazi literacy, economic specialization, and closure to inward gene flow led to a social environment in which there was high fitness payoff to intelligence, specifically verbal and mathematical intelligence… As with any regime of strong directional selection on a quantitative trait, genetic variants that were otherwise fitness reducing rose in frequency. [http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf](http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf) This is also seen in terms of ‘middle class traits’ being selected for in structured agricultural societies. > [@](#): > > In my recent book, A Farewell to Alms: A Brief Economic History of the World I argue two things. First that all societies remained in a state I label the “Malthusian economy” up until the onset of the Industrial Revolution around 1800. In that state crucially the economic laws governing all human societies before 1800 were those that govern all animal societies. Second that was thus subject to natural selection throughout the Malthusian era, even after the arrival of settled agrarian societies with the Neolithic Revolution. > > The Darwinian struggle that shaped human nature did not end with the Neolithic Revolution but continued right up until the Industrial Revolution. But the arrival of settled agriculture and stable property rights set natural selection on a very different course. \*\*It created an accelerated period of evolution, rewarding with reproductive success a new repertoire of human behaviors – patience, self-control, passivity, and hard work – which consequently spread widely. \*\* > > And we see in England, from at least 1250, that the kind of people who succeeded in the economic system – who accumulated assets, got skills, got literacy – increased their representation in each generation. Through the long agrarian passage leading up to the Industrial Revolution man was becoming biologically more adapted to the modern economic world. Modern people are thus in part a creation of the market economies that emerged with the Neolithic Revolution. Just as people shaped economies, the pre-industrial economy shaped people. This has left the people of long settled agrarian societies substantially different now from our hunter gatherer ancestors, in terms of culture, and likely also in terms of biology. > **[Social Darwinism: 21st century edition](https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/07/social-darwinism-21st-century-edition.html)** > > This is a nice summary of economic historian Gregory Clark's views on recent human evolution. See related posts . I think one standard devia... Also, see ‘The 10,000 Year Explosion’ reviewed here: > [@](#): > > Farmers store wealth; wealth is always unequally distributed where there is phenotypic variation in the ability to acquire it, and social mobility.Variance in reproductive success increased in settled societies.But the pathways to that reproductive success vary between populations: different traits are desirable in different places. It follows that there is selection on diverse personalities and cognitive abilities among various populations. > > For example, in East Asia the 7R allele of the DRD4 gene (an allele associated with ADHD) is almost absent, but importantly, alleles derived from the 7R allele are common. That suggests that the 7R allele did not play well in East Asia although it may have been quite a benefit in other populations. [http://www.atypon-link.com/AAP/doi/pdf/10.1375/twin.12.4.409](http://www.atypon-link.com/AAP/doi/pdf/10.1375/twin.12.4.409) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/59 "2010-10-21T15:09:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No, it’s really not all that rare. There are plenty of smart people that were socially skilled as kids. Just as there are plenty of jocks who were bright and literate. Not everyone who wears coke bottle glasses is smart and not every kid who is popular is anti-intellectual. Maybe rare is not the right word. Its uncommmon. How many valedictorian/salutatorians do you think were also the class president or the prom queen, or the captain of the football team for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660/60 "2010-10-21T21:07:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Maybe rare is not the right word. Its uncommmon. How many valedictorian/salutatorians do you think were also the class president or the prom queen, or the captain of the football team for that matter. The spectrum between socially inept geek and prom queen/king is huge. Posessing a full set of social skills doesn’t necessitate you being the most popular person in the room. You can’t just look at the extremes and draw the conclusion you have. Maybe my K-12 experience was completely different than yours, but I found that most kids who were well-liked and admired were also the smartest. They got top grades, were involved in extracurriculars (like sports), and were respected by the adults in the school. Those who were socially inept and unpopular weren actually less likely to be smart than the popular ones were. In fact, sometimes they were made fun of because they weren’t as quick in class. They were easy targets because they didn’t fit in and lacked the skills to do so (which is different than not fitting in because you simply don’t want to…these kids generally weren’t targets). The whole “acting white” thing in my experience wasn’t about being smart so much as exhibiting behaviors associated with white stereotypes. Like talking in what appears to be an affected “white” manner or showing more interest in “white” things (like heavy metal) than “black” things (like R&B). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-need-to-get-their-act-together-vs-aa-social-troubles-are-an-american-problem/557660.md?page=4)