# Blacks overwhelmingly against gay marriage - Why such hypocrisy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658 "2009-07-02T02:28:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/181 "2009-07-07T14:48:04Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t want to get to far off topic and arguing details I don’t think are very relevant. Please read my recent post. Even when people sincerely believe whatever justification they have I still think it’s a subtle hypocrisy. Two beliefs contradict each other. I support equal rights and I oppose SSM. But the one belief isn’t “I support equal rights”. It’s “I support equal rights for blacks” or “I support equal rights regardless of race”. It’s possible to believe that people shouldn’t be discriminated against because of their race but should be because of some other factor. It’s possible to be homophobic and not racist. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/182 "2009-07-07T15:28:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I think blacks in general just have a macho culture and they see homosexuality as going against that. I doubt it has as much to do with religion as it does with seeing homosexuality as undignified. I have read some sociological writing to the effect that since black “manhood” was suppressed and demeaned through slavery, blacks as a group have evolved a more macho culture to compensate for that. When you’re poor and treated as a second class citizen, the one thing you can still hold onto is your manhood. Why do you think the ultimate put-down in black urban culture is to call someone “bitch?” Or “punk,” which originally was explicitly a term used to refer to an effeminate homosexual male who was dominated by an older and more powerful man. I think this is a pretty logical theory. If you read about how much more underground homosexuality is among blacks than among whites (they call it the “down low”) it all makes sense. It is not religion at work here, it is the code of masculinity and machismo. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/183 "2009-07-07T15:57:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But the one belief isn’t “I support equal rights”. It’s “I support equal rights for blacks” or “I support equal rights regardless of race”. It’s possible to believe that people shouldn’t be discriminated against because of their race but should be because of some other factor. It’s possible to be homophobic and not racist. You’re talking about the justification I just mentioned. Yeah you can rephrase it a lot of ways so it doesn’t seem like hypocrisy. I think the point some are making amounts to if the justification is believed sincerely enough then it isn’t hypocrisy. If they really really believe it’s not a civil rights issue it’s not hypocrisy. I disagree. I think the detail that the separation is sexual orientation isn’t any more a justification than skin color, country of origin, or religion. Whether it’s homophobia, racism, or religious prejudice doesn’t change the element of hypocrisy involved. Yes I support equal rights, except for _those_ people in \*that \*area, and I have a really good reason that can’t really be justified by any data. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/184 "2009-07-07T17:09:40Z")
But hypocrisy is a matter of belief not matching action, or pretending to have a belief they don’t have. If somebody believes that gays should be allowed to marry and then votes for or gives money to support Prop. 8 in California, that’s a hypocritical act. When Newt Gingrich was having an affair at the time he was trying to impeach President Clinton for having an affair, that was a hypocritical act. I think the term you’re trying to describe isn’t hypocrisy, it’s cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is when somebody believes two contradictory things. One of the ways people deal with cognitive dissonance is by rationalization. And the statement "Yes I support equal rights, except for those people in that area, and I have a really good reason that can’t really be justified by any data. " is definitely a rationalization. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/185 "2009-07-07T18:26:30Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t want to get to far off topic and arguing details I don’t think are very relevant. Please read my recent post. Even when people sincerely believe whatever justification they have I still think it’s a subtle hypocrisy. Two beliefs contradict each other. I support equal rights and I oppose SSM. I did read your post. Did you read mine? Would you like to respond to it? Because I think my post did a pretty good job of pointing out why your post was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/186 "2009-07-07T19:17:30Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But the one belief isn’t “I support equal rights”. It’s “I support equal rights for blacks” or “I support equal rights regardless of race”. It’s possible to believe that people shouldn’t be discriminated against because of their race but should be because of some other factor. It’s possible to be homophobic and not racist. This is true, at least from an epistemological standpoint. However, there has always been an undercurrent of racism tinging much black opposition to LGBT equality. Being gay is seen as a white behavior (and un-African), and whatever unfairness that LBGT discrimination engenders is permissible because it primarily afflicts white men. As to **you with the face** ’s contentions: we have seen that black resistance to equality transcends region (see the Prop 8 vote in California) and religion. Among black Muslims and even largely secular black nationalist movements, homosexuality was suppressed, often on the racialist grounds I noted above. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/187 "2009-07-07T22:51:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But hypocrisy is a matter of belief not matching action, or pretending to have a belief they don’t have. If somebody believes that gays should be allowed to marry and then votes for or gives money to support Prop. 8 in California, that’s a hypocritical act. When Newt Gingrich was having an affair at the time he was trying to impeach President Clinton for having an affair, that was a hypocritical act. > > I think the term you’re trying to describe isn’t hypocrisy, it’s cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is when somebody believes two contradictory things. One of the ways people deal with cognitive dissonance is by rationalization. And the statement "Yes I support equal rights, except for those people in that area, and I have a really good reason that can’t really be justified by any data. " is definitely a rationalization. OKay. I appreciate that explanation. My question is, why can’t it be both? Is it necessarily one or the other? Posters keep wanting to use other words\* rather than \* hypocrisy. Why do those words eliminate the element of hypocrisy? btw, I think hypocrisy is more like an action that contradicts a stated belief. A mismatched action rather than a matched one but an action. So, couldn’t cognitive dissonance result in hypocritical acts? According to Wikki’s page on CD it appears so. > [@](#): > > Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Wouldn’t that be hypocrisy? I think all the things listed, CD, willful ignorance, religious belief, can all easily contain that element of hypocrisy I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/188 "2009-07-07T23:14:07Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Posters keep wanting to use other words\* rather than \* hypocrisy. Because the word doesn’t fit. And, at least in my opinion, there’s the impression that people are trying to use this word for unnecessary villifying purposes rather than accuracy. Here’s another reason applying the hypocrisy label to a ethnic group raises my hackles. Being black isn’t a belief system, and it’s irritating to see people putting forth arguments that imply otherwise. I’ve known plenty of black people who are bigots and prejudiced and cynical. They are what they are because they are _people_. Being black doesn’t make them immune to human shortcomings. You can call a Christian a hypocrite for persecuting gays. Why? Because Christianity is a belief system. Persecution of minorities goes against the belief system that Jesus espoused. Hence, his so-called followers are hypocrites if they are anti-gay. You can call a Republican a hypocrite for trying to ban SSM using the same thought process. But this doesn’t work when you’re talking about groups defined by things that have nothing to do with beliefs and are beyond their control. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/189 "2009-07-07T23:14:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I did read your post. Did you read mine? Would you like to respond to it? Because I think my post did a pretty good job of pointing out why your post was wrong. I did read your post and I thought your examples were invalid comparisons. Both convicted criminals and pedophiles commit and act that harms someone else. Neither being black or being gay is an action that harms someone else. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/190 "2009-07-07T23:30:27Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Both convicted criminals and pedophiles commit and act that harms someone else. Neither being black or being gay is an action that harms someone else. And why do you think comparisons to child rights is invalid? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/191 "2009-07-08T00:08:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because the word doesn’t fit. And, at least in my opinion, there’s the impression that people are trying to use this word for unnecessary villifying purposes rather than accuracy. > > Here’s another reason applying the hypocrisy label to a ethnic group raises my hackles. Being black isn’t a belief system, and it’s irritating to see people putting forth arguments that imply otherwise. I’ve known plenty of black people who are bigots and prejudiced and cynical. They are what they are because they are _people_. Being black doesn’t make them immune to human shortcomings. > > You can call a Christian a hypocrite for persecuting gays. Why? Because Christianity is a belief system. Persecution of minorities goes against the belief system that Jesus espoused. Hence, his so-called followers are hypocrites if they are anti-gay. > > You can call a Republican a hypocrite for trying to ban SSM using the same thought process. But this doesn’t work when you’re talking about groups defined by things that have nothing to do with beliefs and are beyond their control. I think you’ve identified the problem at last. It’s you and your false impressions. Blacks as a group have a higher rate of unwed parenthood and males in jail. Those are statistical facts not judgments against them. The thread started with another statistic about blacks that is true and posed a simple question about it based on their history which is also a fact. If you see it as some kind of slur against them as a group that’s your problem because nobody I’ve seen has presented it as such. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/192 "2009-07-08T00:19:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I did read your post and I thought your examples were invalid comparisons. Both convicted criminals and pedophiles commit and act that harms someone else. Neither being black or being gay is an action that harms someone else. I agree. But you’re missing the point. I think homosexuality is harmless. You think homosexuality is harmless. But that guy over there thinks that homosexuality will draw down God’s wrath on us all, and so he votes against giving equal rights to gays. Now, the premise that God is going to smite us for allowing gays to marry is obviously ridiculous, but if one accepts that premise, than it is absolutely sensible to oppose gay marriage. And if your entire world outlook revolves around not getting smote by God, then opposing gay marriage isn’t hypocritical at all: it is entirely in line with your professed belief system. Your belief system may be based on several deeply flawed premises, but a flawed premise is not hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/193 "2009-07-08T00:44:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Blacks as a group have a higher rate of unwed parenthood and males in jail. Those are statistical facts not judgments against them. Of course not. But calling them hoes and thugs would be judgements. So too is calling them hypocrites. The word conveys more than just “you are wrong and need to be educated”. It implies a form of malicious agenda: “You say one thing, but then you do the opposite when it suits you.” The only purpose of calling someone a hypocrite is to shame them. Do a search on the times “hypocrisy” and “hypocrites” are used on the board, and tell me in what contexts these terms _are not_ used to make a judgements about someone’s character. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/194 "2009-07-08T02:05:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of course not. But calling them hoes and thugs would be judgements. So too is calling them hypocrites. The word conveys more than just “you are wrong and need to be educated”. It implies a form of malicious agenda: “You say one thing, but then you do the opposite when it suits you.” Denying people their civil rights is a malicious agenda regardless of the justification. They may be convinced they’re right and doing it for God and morality but it is still a malicious agenda. > [@](#): > > The only purpose of calling someone a hypocrite is to shame them. Please be realistic and accurate. Most humans are hypocrites from time to time about one thing or another. It isn’t necessarily a horrific condemnation. You may call someone a hypocrite because you value them and want them to grow past it. > [@](#): > > Do a search on the times “hypocrisy” and “hypocrites” are used on the board, and tell me in what contexts these terms _are not_ used to make a judgements about someone’s character. No. We’re talking about this thread and how it’s being used now. It’s an observation of a particular human trait within a specific group concerning a specific subject only. Your need to make it something else and then accuse others is a mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/195 "2009-07-08T02:28:16Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Your need to make it something else and then accuse others is a mystery to me. Multiple people in this thread have been thoughtfully and patiently trying to explain to you why you’re wrong. You specifically asked why people have a problem with the way “hypocrite” is being used in this thread. And I explained my reason. To which you respond with annoying responses like the one above. So go on and persist in doing whatever the hell you want to do. You obviously are bothered that people disagree with you, but I see no sign that you’re willing to consider where they are coming from. And so I’m through. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/196 "2009-07-08T02:29:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I agree. But you’re missing the point. I think homosexuality is harmless. You think homosexuality is harmless. But that guy over there thinks that homosexuality will draw down God’s wrath on us all, and so he votes against giving equal rights to gays. Now, the premise that God is going to smite us for allowing gays to marry is obviously ridiculous, but if one accepts that premise, than it is absolutely sensible to oppose gay marriage. And if your entire world outlook revolves around not getting smote by God, then opposing gay marriage isn’t hypocritical at all: it is entirely in line with your professed belief system. Your belief system may be based on several deeply flawed premises, but a flawed premise is not hypocritical. I’m not missing that point. I understand it and agree when looking at only that aspect. I don’t think it’s the whole picture. Did you see the post about cognitive dissonance? If people believe things that contradict each other they have to find some rationalization to make the two conflicting beliefs jibe. While not supporting SSM does not conflict their religious beliefs it does conflict with their support of equal rights. The justification is to maintain the false claim that being gay is a choice and to deny the evidence that clearly contradicts that non religious belief. That’s not innocent ignorance. That’s willful ignorance and IMO that contains the element of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/197 "2009-07-08T03:01:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Multiple people in this thread have been thoughtfully and patiently trying to explain to you why you’re wrong. > > You specifically asked why people have a problem with the way “hypocrite” is being used in this thread. And I explained my reason. To which you respond with annoying responses like the one above. > > So go on and persist in doing whatever the hell you want to do. You obviously are bothered that people disagree with you, but I see no sign that you’re willing to consider where they are coming from. And so I’m through. I have considered where they and you are coming from and understand it. I don’t have to agree to do that. I’m not bothered by people disagreeing with me. Perhaps you can take a look at your own posts and see what you’re implying with comments like > [@](#): > > The only purpose of calling someone a hypocrite is to shame them. > [@](#): > > there’s the impression that people are trying to use this word for unnecessary villifying purposes rather than accuracy. > [@](#): > > The word bigotry suffices. Seriously, there are other words in the dictionary that work just fine. Not knowing what there is to gain in using a word that doesn’t fit. > [@](#): > > Here’s another reason applying the hypocrisy label to a ethnic group raises my hackles. Being black isn’t a belief system, and it’s irritating to see people putting forth arguments that imply otherwise. > [@](#): > > The urgency I sense comes from people’s insistence in using a word to describe their opponents in a villifying manner rather than a honest, accurate one. and aimed at me personally > [@](#): > > And this is just more disingenuousness. So please don’t whine about me saying annoying things while you’ve been so thoughtful. Don’t dish it out if you can’t take it. I assume you’ve expressed your honest opinion. So have I. We just don’t agree and that’s the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/198 "2009-07-08T04:05:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not missing that point. I understand it and agree when looking at only that aspect. I don’t think it’s the whole picture. Did you see the post about cognitive dissonance? If people believe things that contradict each other they have to find some rationalization to make the two conflicting beliefs jibe. Except that there is no contradiction in thinking that race is value neutral, and homosexuality negative. > [@](#): > > While not supporting SSM does not conflict their religious beliefs it does conflict with their support of equal rights. You’re still missing the point. Nobody supports equal rights for everybody. No matter how dedicated one is to the concept of liberty, there’s always going to be some group that, for whatever reason, is going to be considered undeserving of some subset of the rights held by the majority. Placing homosexuals in this group is, at best, a grievous error in categorization, but it is not automatically hypocritical, unless you insist on a bloody-mindedly literal reading of the term, “supports equal rights,” that only applies to people who disagree with you on this particular social issue. > [@](#): > > The justification is to maintain the false claim that being gay is a choice and to deny the evidence that clearly contradicts that non religious belief. That’s not innocent ignorance. That’s willful ignorance and IMO that contains the element of hypocrisy. Your opinion is defective. Willful ignorance and hypocrisy are not the same things. And disagreeing with your particular interpretation of facts is not the same as willful ignorance. Finally, not accepting your prioritization of factors in arriving at a conclusion cannot even be reliably called _wrong_. It is, for example, perfectly possible to agree that homosexuality is not a choice, and still feel that there are other factors that are more important than the question of free will in deciding whether gays should have all the same rights as straights. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/199 "2009-07-08T12:12:26Z")
] > [@Miller](#): > > Except that there is no contradiction in thinking that race is value neutral, and homosexuality negative. I’ve just acknowledged that in one aspect there appears to be no contradiction while in another there is. > [@](#): > > You’re still missing the point. Nobody supports equal rights for everybody. No matter how dedicated one is to the concept of liberty, there’s always going to be some group that, for whatever reason, is going to be considered undeserving of some subset of the rights held by the majority. Placing homosexuals in this group is, at best, a grievous error in categorization, but it is not automatically hypocritical, unless you insist on a bloody-mindedly literal reading of the term, “supports equal rights,” that only applies to people who disagree with you on this particular social issue. I’m not missing this point and I’ve explained why. It has nothing to do with the concept that we do limit civil liberties for some groups. That’s irrelevant. There’s no too literal reading to consider. It’s the specific subject that matters. It has to do with limiting the liberties of a group for some innate quality as they strive for rights that others already have. It has to do with them wanting a right that offers no harm to themselves or anyone else and still being denied that right. It has to do with them suffering from the prejudice of others against that innate quality of their humanity. All parallels between the blacks struggle for civil rights and the gays. We’re talking about SSM specifically but most citizens are aware that gays have struggled for other civil rights and are still struggling. That awareness is relevant to this specific discussion. > [@](#): > > Your opinion is defective. I realize that’s \*your \*opinion. Pardon me for not valuing yours more than my own. > [@](#): > > Willful ignorance and hypocrisy are not the same things. I never implied they were. I also know cognitive dissonance is not the same as hypocrisy and neither is religious fervor. I’m saying it those things can contribute to and exist within a situation that is hypocritical. > [@](#): > > And disagreeing with your particular interpretation of facts is not the same as willful ignorance. Never came close to saying that. I meant that people who cling to the justification “being gay is a choice” purposely avoiding and denying the solid evidence to the contrary are being willfully ignorant. That willful ignorance and unwillingness to resolve the contradiction between their conflicting principles contributes to the hypocrisy I’m talking about. What you and others have explained about sincerely believing their justifications based on religion or ignorance or whatever makes sense. I understand it and I’d agree **if** that was the only aspect involved. It isn’t. The other aspect I’ve explained is where the hypocrisy resides. IMO. > [@](#): > > Finally, not accepting your prioritization of factors in arriving at a conclusion cannot even be reliably called _wrong_. It is, for example, perfectly possible to agree that homosexuality is not a choice, and still feel that there are other factors that are more important than the question of free will in deciding whether gays should have all the same rights as straights. I’m not sure how that applies to this conversation. We’ve discussed a lot of aspects here on the SDMB and so far nobody has raised any rational, believable, fact based, argument opposing SSM. What other factors are you talking about that don’t present the same problem. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658/200 "2009-07-08T15:34:25Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Almost 1/3 of states already recognize civil unions. CA is the perfect example. The differences between a Domestic Partnership and a marriage are pretty small in CA: [Domestic partnership in California - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_from_Marriage) > > Despite that, proponents still claim it is about ‘rights’. It isn’t. Both sides are simply stamping their feet about the word ‘marriage’. I gotta jump in here, not having read further than this in the thread yet. I am very involved in California Prop 8 politics, where our small town was the only one whose city Council took a stand urging people to vote in favor of Prop 8 in the entire state. they snuck that through without sufficient public notice or discussion last October, and I can assure you they have not stopped hearing about it since, nor will they until they correct what they have done. I currently have a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523574) where I am asking for what the supposed rational basis is in support of Prop 8, having been offered it by a local supporter who turned up at a public meeting, but who, when asked for the details seems to have turned and ran. So far, it seems this thread, while focused on black, who are in very small numbers in my community (thanks to the historic presence of the KKK many long timers have told me willingly and without prompting!), has some very valuable answers to my own question. Thus, I can not let the quoted claim go unchallenged, as it is at the heart of the material I have been providing to our elected officials recently, as recently as last night. The difference is NOT small, as someone alluded above, there are 1139 State and Federal rights and obligations that are attached to marriage that are not attached to a CA domestic partnership. Here is a link that describes the categories of those differences and similarities in a table form, so [you can see simply where rights align and where they are different](http://www.lambdalegal.org/our-work/publications/facts-backgrounds/page-31985503.html). It is a common tactic of SSM opponents to deny the importance of the the differences. I can assure you though, when presented with the actual differences, no one has ever denied that the differences are fact. And I can assure you with equal certainty that no married man or woman has suggested that since they don’t see the differences as important, they would be glad to campaign to remove the rights that married people have but domestic partners don’t, in order to equalize the situation. Funny how that works, something about a goose and a gander I think. Thanks for the wikipedia link btw. Expect that to be changing soon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/blacks-overwhelmingly-against-gay-marriage-why-such-hypocrisy/501658.md?page=11)